Ford Canada, Unifor reach tentative deal that includes $2B in EV contracts

[tweety]

I was responding to your post above where you suggested that it takes less labor to build an EV than an ICE car.
The reality is that it requires much more labor as evidenced by their price tags.

Not sure, but this is what you wrote. The assumption seems to convey that because the car is expensive, the labour is higher. Seems to be in conflict that the car is actually much simpler then an ICE based car.

But to save you some time Bryce Gaton - unlike you and I (or for sure I) is a real expert - has the answer.

https://thedriven.io/2018/11/30/ev-price-tipping-point-automakers/ https://thedriven.io/2018/11/30/ev-price-tipping-point-automakers/

[chuckChuck]

Just for the record. We all know that solar will not replace fossil fuels until significant affordable storage is available. We will also require other sources of cleaner energy. Hydro, natural gas, wind, solar, tidal power, cogeneration, geothermal, hydrogen, bio-gas, bio-fuels and increasing efficiency to meet the Paris climate goals which both Erin O'toole and Justin Trudeau agree with.

What solar can do is reduce the amount of fossil fuels burned in electrical generation, thus reducing the associated carbon emissions and pollution that comes with fossil fuel use.

The system operator in Australia already said they can handle up to 60-70% of renewables in their grid system. We know that this is reducing coal use in Australia because many of their coal fired generation plants are losing money. Sask power is planning on 50% renewables by 2030 and shutting down all coal plants unless they use CCS again.

In the case of my solar inverters, it is very easy to see the output wattage of my 25kw system. The output maxes out at the specified 90 some per cent efficiency. The total average 35,000 kwh output covers my annual average usage. Of course it is not matched to the load usage during winter and overnight. But most of my usage is related to aeration fans which could be run with a large natural gas generator for the few weeks of the year that I run my fans.

Solar will not solve our electrical requirements on its own. It is however a very usefulltool that is increasingly becoming cheaper and cheaper to the point that it is the cheapest forms of generation. So why not use it when it makes sense?

Both the the International Energy Agency and Bloomberg are forecasting significant adoption of renewable electricty worldwide. Are they wrong? I don't think so.

[farming101]

Chuck would you care to comment please:

As the province moves to more intermittent sources of electricity to supplement the grid, do you think demand charges will increase a lot to make up for the need to supply power to the grid 24/7?

Solar might be cheapest, but the type of power generation needed for backup is not.
In other jurisdictions it seems that this on again, off again use of backup generation to fill in when wind and solar are not there is very expensive and the costs/charges associated with this backup capacity are very high.

I can see every power consumer that uses a fair amount of electricity having a demand meter installed.
It might not matter so much how much power is being used but when, and what the Power Company has to pay to secure that supply when called for.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

It is entirely possible, and even probable that with economies of scale, and a maturing industry that EV's will become cheaper than ICE's down the road.

Everyone and their dog is working on the holy grail, of building batteries using less, or no rare earth elements, that will change the economics completely.

But as of today, the total labor to build an EV is greater than the total labor to build an ICE. And when you consider that Ford ( as is the topic of this thread) builds most of their ICE powertrains in NA, using NA union labor, and materials, and complying with NA regulations, whereas the EV powertrains are using almost entirely imported compnents and materials, from places such as China and Congo, with no such regulations, the labour gap is even bigger than it appears just by price alone.

As I noted above, this higher cost includes the designing, engineering, financing and other fixed costs which currently are spread around far fewer vehicles, so are higher. That can only improve if sales accelerate.

The article you posted agrees, they cost more, due to material constraints, developement costs, economies of scale etc. That is all labor. Engineers, and designers have labor too. So does the child in Congo mining cobalt with hand tools. So does the worker in China processing toxic materials etc etc.
Then he spends most of the article discussing the conspiracy theory that existing manufacturers don't want cheap EV's and a random tangeant about Kodak. Must have learned from Chuck.

[tweety]

Supplemental renewable generation is a concept Agriville struggles to grasp.

Put a plate facing the sun to charge an electric car and go for a drive. Not that hard to understand why this is a good thing, especially considering how many people commute and sit in traffic idling that pollution belching machine for half the time.

For those of you who only live in February on a cloudy snowy day all year , then this makes no practical sense.

The fight for better policy will continue. What better place then a farm for cogen by renewables? Store energy all winter to farm during the summer. Yes it will happen one day.

[chuckChuck]

Chuck would you care to comment please:

As the province moves to more intermittent sources of electricity to supplement the grid, do you think demand charges will increase a lot to make up for the need to supply power to the grid 24/7?

Solar might be cheapest, but the type of power generation needed for backup is not.
In other jurisdictions it seems that this on again, off again use of backup generation to fill in when wind and solar are not there is very expensive and the costs/charges associated with this backup capacity are very high.

I can see every power consumer that uses a fair amount of electricity having a demand meter installed.
It might not matter so much how much power is being used but when, and what the Power Company has to pay to secure that supply when called for.

Hydro as a backup is very cheap. Manitoba has a surplus. We are going to use more and more hydro. Coal is going to be converted to gas fired. We are in a good place to go cleaner. As to whether we go to demand meters for everyone or moderate users, I am not sure. Sask Power and the government set this policy. Let’s see how 50 % renewables works in 2030. It’s a modest start but easily achievable.

I think The Sask Government wants the Econnomic development in the province rather than in Manitoba so That’s why they prefer gas over hydro imports. I don’t know how much surplus hydro is available But they are planning on some.

[farming101]

In 2019 California generated 20.85% of its electricity produced in state from solar and wind.

This past August demand exceeded supply and they had to go to rolling blackouts.
Wind was not there and they could not import because of great demand in other areas out of state.

It seems to me that there is no case for taking renewables that are based on solar and wind to as much as
50% of power produced. The grid would be unstable.

Not many people stand for power outages. It is not viewed as a luxury.
Neither are people willing to pay an arm and a leg to have a battery of gas fired generators ready to go when demand peaks. Pricey

[chuckChuck]

The Australian system operator I quoted a few posts ago said they can handle up to 60-70% renewables.

[tweety]

In 2019 California generated 20.85% of its electricity produced in state from solar and wind.

This past August demand exceeded supply and they had to go to rolling blackouts.
Wind was not there and they could not import because of great demand in other areas out of state.

It seems to me that there is no case for taking renewables that are based on solar and wind to as much as
50% of power produced. The grid would be unstable.

Not many people stand for power outages. It is not viewed as a luxury.
Neither are people willing to pay an arm and a leg to have a battery of gas fired generators ready to go when demand peaks. Pricey

The flip side is the gas plants have been poorly maintained and with the thing no one believes in, the hotter temps are drastically reducing the efficiency of natural gas plants. There is a lot of blame going on why the blackouts, it isn't solely because of renewables, it is a combination of many things.

[chuckChuck]

Why the renewable power investment opportunity could rival the smartphone boom. Plus, three REITs for riding out the second wave
PUBLISHED 10 HOURS AGO
UPDATED SEPTEMBER 28, 2020

BofA Securities analyst Haim Israel is making some tall claims about the future for hydrogen fuel, comparing the scale of the investment opportunity to smartphones before 2007 and the internet during the early 1990s.

A lot has to go right, but Mr. Israel believes hydrogen will account for 24 per cent of the world’s power usage by 2050 and the industry will generate US$2.5-trillion annually.

In a research note last week, the analyst said he sees three primary drivers behind the growth of hydrogen power: the falling costs of generating green hydrogen fuel, new technologies, and ex-U.S. government incentives promoting de-carbonization.

The current problem with hydrogen fuel is the power needed to produce it. Currently, 99 per cent of hydrogen is made using electricity generated from fossil fuels. (Interestingly, Mr. Israel notes that French industrial gas provider Air Liquide S.A. uses fossil fuels to make hydrogen, but its Cryocap technology recaptures the carbon byproduct of the process to sell as carbon dioxide to industries like beverages that need a steady supply of it).

Hydrogen power will only be fully green if renewable power is used to make it. At this stage, using renewable energy sources to produce hydrogen fuel makes it extremely expensive. Mr. Israel, however, believes a combination of technological advancement and government incentives will soon close the gap.

Hydrogen fuel also fits neatly into renewable power grids as a type of battery. For instance, excess solar power generated during the daytime hours can be used to make hydrogen for night usage.

The conversion of almost a quarter of the world’s power supply to hydrogen, however, will certainly not happen overnight.

Chemical companies like Air Liquide, Linde PLC and Air Products and Chemicals Inc. will benefit through rising hydrogen sales if and when the trend takes hold. Equipment makers like ITM Power PLC and Thyssenkrupp AG, who manufacture the machinery necessary to produce hydrogen fuel, would also see profits, and their stock prices, climb.

-- Scott Barlow, Globe and Mail market strategist

[chuckChuck]

Interesting analysis about hydrogen from the Bank of America. Maybe there is a reason why Toyota says they will be totally emission free In production and transportation by 2050 using hydrogen. That would be a remarkable achievement.

There are lots of ifs involved. But the move to to cleaner more efficient technology is here. The investments and economic benefits will be massive. But so will the cost of climate change if left unchecked!

[Hamloc]

Supplemental renewable generation is a concept Agriville struggles to grasp.

Put a plate facing the sun to charge an electric car and go for a drive. Not that hard to understand why this is a good thing, especially considering how many people commute and sit in traffic idling that pollution belching machine for half the time.

For those of you who only live in February on a cloudy snowy day all year , then this makes no practical sense.

The fight for better policy will continue. What better place then a farm for cogen by renewables? Store energy all winter to farm during the summer. Yes it will happen one day.

“Supplemental renewable generation”, Tweety please show me where Elizabeth May, Jagmeet Singh or David Suzuki are suggesting that. You and Chuck2 are not suggesting or promoting that either. You want fossil fuel based generation eliminated. I have asked many times how building 4 generation systems to do the job of one is efficient, good for the environment and makes sense. You or Chuck2 have never addressed this. I have stated many times that I have no problem with renewables, what I have a problem with is renewables being promoted as a base load source of electricity, it will not work in Alberta 365 days a year!

[chuckChuck]

“Supplemental renewable generation”, Tweety please show me where Elizabeth May, Jagmeet Singh or David Suzuki are suggesting that. You and Chuck2 are not suggesting or promoting that either. You want fossil fuel based generation eliminated. I have asked many times how building 4 generation systems to do the job of one is efficient, good for the environment and makes sense. You or Chuck2 have never addressed this. I have stated many times that I have no problem with renewables, what I have a problem with is renewables being promoted as a base load source of electricity, it will not work in Alberta 365 days a year!

Harper said Canada would stop using fossil fuels as an energy source by 2100! Didn’t you vote for him? LOL.

It’s a transition Hamloc. Replacement will occur as technology and supply becomes available. Relax, You are not going to freeze in the dark in your life time unless an asteroid hits.

[LEP]

“Supplemental renewable generation”, Tweety please show me where Elizabeth May, Jagmeet Singh or David Suzuki are suggesting that. You and Chuck2 are not suggesting or promoting that either. You want fossil fuel based generation eliminated. I have asked many times how building 4 generation systems to do the job of one is efficient, good for the environment and makes sense. You or Chuck2 have never addressed this. I have stated many times that I have no problem with renewables, what I have a problem with is renewables being promoted as a base load source of electricity, it will not work in Alberta 365 days a year!

My thoughts exactly. I have no problem with supplemental renewable as long as we don't have to build new baseload to back it up because of the green shift.

[LEP]

Harper said Canada would stop using fossil fuels as an energy source by 2100! Didn’t you vote for him? LOL.

It’s a transition Hamloc. Replacement will occur as technology and supply becomes available. Relax, You are not going to freeze in the dark in your life time unless an asteroid hits.

Hey Chuck Saskpower is moving to more renewables. So you voting Saskparty on the 26th?