Ford Canada, Unifor reach tentative deal that includes $2B in EV contracts

[fjlip]

CC read the Inconvenient Realities, then answer the impossibilities and FOLLY of wasting the planet resources on a dream. Stop talking till you resolve these issues.

Good find jazz, simple math KILLS all the green/electric arguments....

2. For security and reliability, an average of two months of national demand for hydrocarbons are in storage at any time. Today, barely two hours of national electricity demand can be stored in all utility-scale batteries plus all batteries in one million electric cars in America.

13. Batteries produced annually by the Tesla Gigafactory (world’s biggest battery factory) can store three minutes worth of annual U.S. electric demand.

14. To make enough batteries to store two-day’s worth of U.S. electricity demand would require 1,000 years of production by the Gigafactory (world’s biggest battery factory).

[tweety]

Probably because not much will be manufactured here, all major componenents will be outsourced:

...... Big snip

Almost none of the EV components are manuactured in North America.

Oh wow, that's new, components not made in North America. When did that start happening? Just recently?

[chuckChuck]

CC read the Inconvenient Realities, then answer the impossibilities and FOLLY of wasting the planet resources on a dream. Stop talking till you resolve these issues.

Good find jazz, simple math KILLS all the green/electric arguments....

2. For security and reliability, an average of two months of national demand for hydrocarbons are in storage at any time. Today, barely two hours of national electricity demand can be stored in all utility-scale batteries plus all batteries in one million electric cars in America.

13. Batteries produced annually by the Tesla Gigafactory (world’s biggest battery factory) can store three minutes worth of annual U.S. electric demand.

14. To make enough batteries to store two-day’s worth of U.S. electricity demand would require 1,000 years of production by the Gigafactory (world’s biggest battery factory).

And what happened when coal, steam and fossil fuels replaced human and animal power? In the beginning of each shift did it happen gradually over many years or all at once?

This is a transition period. nothing is going to replace all fossil energy sources quickly or completely. In the history of humans and Technological advancement massive change takes time. Many humans are still using wood to cook their food and heat their homes and are still waiting for technology. So how do you know what the adoption of cleaner energy sources will look like decades from now? It’s also not clear whether electric power will be the dominant energy source in tranportation or whether hydrogen will play a prominent role. Toyota is betting more on hydrogen as a cleaner source. Stay tuned!

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Oh wow, that's new, components not made in North America. When did that start happening? Just recently?

I was responding to your post above where you suggested that it takes less labor to build an EV than an ICE car.
The reality is that it requires much more labor as evidenced by their price tags.
But very little of that labour is by high paid union labour here in North America, where current powertrains are manufactured. The components will be made in China and Korea etc. Using materials mined and refined in 3rd world using virtual slave labour. When you consider the drastic difference in labour costs in those countries, the true cost difference from an EV to an ICE is massively larger than even the price tag would indicate.
Chuck and his NFU are big union supporters, even supporting UNIFOR at the coop refinery. But for some reason, they are fully supportive of auto maker making an end run around Unions by outsourcing EV's, under the guise of being green.
So the union supporters are all OK with importing solar panels, wind turbines, and batteries to power imported EV's. Perhaps Chuck can go to Congo or China and unite the workers there to make up for the lost union jobs here.

This might be all for the better in the long run. Break the unions here, then move production back on shore without the corrupt unions.

[jazz]

Stay tuned!

Yes it is a transition period, a 150 yr one that will skip right over these uneconomical and non functional technologies.

[furrowtickler]

[tweety]

I was responding to your post above where you suggested that it takes less labor to build an EV than an ICE car.
The reality is that it requires much more labor as evidenced by their price tags.

Got some evidence for that?

[fjlip]

Or is that CC type thinking doing the economy?

[chuckChuck]

But afterwards there is going to be 1 or 2 four legged moneymakers running around! You gotta look on the bright side there fellas!

[oneoff]

Let it be recorded that the reports o the two dual renewable grid tied "environmentally friendly" electrical energy output of solar and small scale consumer wind generation is at least 50% erroneous. The proof of that is that no CSA approved inverter equipment has been available from any reputable CSA supplier of those inverters for the last approx. 5 years for the Canadian electrical grid..

Tell me otherwise and its worth a lot of money. Grid tied wind is dead on the scale of KW's and tens of KW's.

Thus leaving the promoters of their backyard solar arrays working at 15% of their boiler plate photovoltaic boilerplate rating (optimistically).

And who would/could argue that any usable output occurs during "night", nor even the December/January short daylight hours.
So backyard wind generation was overhyped or western Canada as proven by the manufacturers decision to shelve all inv/verter availability some years ago; and Sask Power doesn't even now have a category for such wind generation.


And Chuck's bit of data of 35000 KWH's over 8760 hours gives almost exactly a claimed 4 KWh average output over a one year period. This is all cyclical intermittent power that must be backed up by baseline generation which arguably can never be provided by any reasonable combination of battery storage.

Now for those who might be interested in electrical grid tied generation from an energy source (known as carbon neutral) produced by a 6000 watt near identical inverter (though apparently current source firmware compared to voltage source firmware) capable of producing with 100% uptime and any desired output up to the inverter rated capacity.... the Sask Power net metering "rec" reading would and did increased from the first week of July 2020 to some 11,200 KWh up to before this last week end. Double check the figures with 83 days times 135 KWh / day . (where 5650 times 24 hours equals about 135 KWh per day

Uptime since commissioning was a few hours short of 100% due to a couple of reasons that are explainable. Instantaneous inverter readings of output don't stray from approx 5610 to 5670 watts; at a set output o 5650 watts;and the 6000 watt could be run at a 10% higher output if desired. It has been found that no component of the rectifier/inverter does reach even body temp.
If there is any use for the waste heat produced by the cogeneration system (and its not too offensive to those opposed to their natural gas space heating needs) then the efficiency of the carbon neutral fuel source just increases by a factor of at least two.

Now begin to compare a $625 McDougall Auction genset and what solar panels cost and a fuel source costlng comparable to sunlight cost; and same net metering grid tied setup; and uptimes expected o each and you will be able to determine how this is all liable to shake out. Now it would take some time to explain the additional regulatory hoops and patience and red tape that had to be addressed over a period o some years.But it's all gained some traction and apparently works exactly as the theory suggests it should. A larger 18KW 3 phase version is in fiinal stages of being connected.

And I predict that the statement I heard some months ago is dead on as to what the future holds.

I have heard if the Regina COOP Refinery were to close down then the Province of Sask would have to triple its electrical output to make up for the loss of energy available for uses now tied to the refinery products. Now remember that in the bigger scheme of things, a 100,000 barrel per day refinery is nothing but small potatoes.And so is Sask Electrical production. And just which small fraction of these small potatoes comes fro any Sask solar energy production.

BEWARE those who repeat the idea of quick charging batteries not designed for rapid charging as either safe or allowed; when such use is deliberately disabled in such situations by Tesla. And to place faith in any new battery living up to its hype sure when no one suggests any guaranteed delivery time; will not be safe to use without both having cooling and heating control; and can be counted on to be available and working about the same decade as the COVID-19 vaccine.
There's more to this than promoters know or are willing to admit.

[furrowtickler]

Let it be recorded that the reports o the two dual renewable grid tied "environmentally friendly" electrical energy output of solar and small scale consumer wind generation is at least 50% erroneous. The proof of that is that no CSA approved inverter equipment has been available from any reputable CSA supplier of those inverters for the last approx. 5 years for the Canadian electrical grid..

Tell me otherwise and its worth a lot of money. Grid tied wind is dead on the scale of KW's and tens of KW's.

Thus leaving the promoters of their backyard solar arrays working at 15% of their boiler plate photovoltaic boilerplate rating (optimistically).

And who would/could argue that any usable output occurs during "night", nor even the December/January short daylight hours.
So backyard wind generation was overhyped or western Canada as proven by the manufacturers decision to shelve all inv/verter availability some years ago; and Sask Power doesn't even now have a category for such wind generation.


And Chuck's bit of data of 35000 KWH's over 8760 hours gives almost exactly a claimed 4 KWh average output over a one year period. This is all cyclical intermittent power that must be backed up by baseline generation which arguably can never be provided by any reasonable combination of battery storage.

Now for those who might be interested in electrical grid tied generation from an energy source (known as carbon neutral) produced by a 6000 watt near identical inverter (though apparently current source firmware compared to voltage source firmware) capable of producing with 100% uptime and any desired output up to the inverter rated capacity.... the Sask Power net metering "rec" reading would and did increased from the first week of July 2020 to some 11,200 KWh up to before this last week end. Double check the figures with 83 days times 135 KWh / day . (where 5650 times 24 hours equals about 135 KWh per day

Uptime since commissioning was a few hours short of 100% due to a couple of reasons that are explainable. Instantaneous inverter readings of output don't stray from approx 5610 to 5670 watts; at a set output o 5650 watts;and the 6000 watt could be run at a 10% higher output if desired. It has been found that no component of the rectifier/inverter does reach even body temp.
If there is any use for the waste heat produced by the cogeneration system (and its not too offensive to those opposed to their natural gas space heating needs) then the efficiency of the carbon neutral fuel source just increases by a factor of at least two.

Now begin to compare a $625 McDougall Auction genset and what solar panels cost and a fuel source costlng comparable to sunlight cost; and same net metering grid tied setup; and uptimes expected o each and you will be able to determine how this is all liable to shake out. Now it would take some time to explain the additional regulatory hoops and patience and red tape that had to be addressed over a period o some years.But it's all gained some traction and apparently works exactly as the theory suggests it should. A larger 18KW 3 phase version is in fiinal stages of being connected.

And I predict that the statement I heard some months ago is dead on as to what the future holds.

I have heard if the Regina COOP Refinery were to close down then the Province of Sask would have to triple its electrical output to make up for the loss of energy available for uses now tied to the refinery products. Now remember that in the bigger scheme of things, a 100,000 barrel per day refinery is nothing but small potatoes.And so is Sask Electrical production. And just which small fraction of these small potatoes comes fro any Sask solar energy production.

BEWARE those who repeat the idea of quick charging batteries not designed for rapid charging as either safe or allowed; when such use is deliberately disabled in such situations by Tesla. And to place faith in any new battery living up to its hype sure when no one suggests any guaranteed delivery time; will not be safe to use without both having cooling and heating control; and can be counted on to be available and working about the same decade as the COVID-19 vaccine.
There's more to this than promoters know or are willing to admit.

Excellent post
Something meaningful and realistic to our part of the world

[furrowtickler]

Doesn't seem to be much celebrating about all the Ford jobs and EV contracts!

Is this is because the EV jobs don't fit with the narrative that the economy is "going to hell" because of EVs and renwewable energy?

All we hear is crickets.

Who’s We , a bunch of scam artists like the liberal WE ??

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Got some evidence for that?

Evidence for the cost of an EV being more than a comparable ICE car?

Or evidence that the cost of a product is the sum of the labour required to create the product?

We don't just sacrifice $100 bills to appease the Lithium gods by throwing money into the Lithium mine, and they throw out batteries in return. We pay geologists, and exploration companies, and financiers, and equipment operators, and roughnecks and refinery workers, and truck drivers to provide the fuel to power the equipment to dig out, transport and process the minerals, we pay the entire chain of labourers who made the equipment, we pay the designers, and engineers, and marketers, and administrators, and regulators, and eventually, we pay the assembly line workers who actually build the car. And if there is anything left over, ( otherwise known as profit), we pay the owners, or shareholders to compensate them for the labor they exchanged for a piece of the company.

Now imagine if Ford were to move the mining, and processing, and manufacturing of those batteries and EV powertrains to North America, and meet NA environmental, safety, labour and regulatory standards, then pay NA union wages, what would be the true cost of the labor in the EV compared to the ICE?

[tweety]

Evidence for the cost of an EV being more than a comparable ICE car?

The labor cost of building an EV is much more then an ICE even though an EV is far less complex. Any evidence to that?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

The labor cost of building an EV is much more then an ICE even though an EV is far less complex. Any evidence to that?

I think we are talking about two separate things. You are referring to final assembly of pre fabricated components. Someone has to invest labour into those components, and into the material that goes into those components.

How do you account for the fact that the EV costs more? Do they just pay their employees more per hour?

Why do you believe an EV is less complex? Do you know much about winding motors? Or the chemistry of batteries? Less moving parts, does not mean less complex, or less cost. It may eventually, but so far it is not.