Getting religion

[cakadu]

I have no qualms about agreeing that there has been corruption of some sort - how much, how deep and how far reaching we don't really know yet.

Are we to believe that it just happened when the Liberals came to power, or more specifically in the last 10 to 12 years? As Emrald has pointed out, it can happen anywhere, anytime and by anyone. Some are likely just better at hiding it than others.

Not too much has been made about the fact that those the Conservative MP illegally taped the conversations. Yes, that's right illegally because it is illegal to tape anyone without informing them of doing so. Is it alright that they taped someone because they were trying to catch Osupposedly) bad people?

It is a sad fact that there are those people that will go along to get along; will think that they are something special because they happen to be currying favor (not understanding that if it happens with them, it could happen to them too), keept taking their piece of the pie "because they deserve it" and the list goes on.

What does hurt with the Liberals is that they appear to be unbelievably brazen (or complete idiots) when it comes to taking responsibility for what they have done. A certain former public works minister comes to mind there.

The hard part for many of us is that we have difficulty comprehending how they can do it. Take for example, when a tragedy strikes, some people will go out and loot and steal - how can they do that? Most of us were brought up to believe that you don't take what isn't rightfully yours. Yet, this goes on all too often.

In your case emrald, the Reeve in your county sounds pretty bold in what he/she did. In our county, the former county manager made off like a bandit (some $3 million I believe it was) because council wasn't necessarily on the ball.

There has likely been so much go on and we don't have any idea of the depth or scope of it. What I wonder is how on earth you get it cleaned up?

[silverback]

Cakadu, with all due respect, it is not illegal to tape a conversation without consent from the other party.

There have been countless lawyers attesting to that on the radio since this came out. Maybe someone out there can tell us what would make it illegal.

That being the case, how can you be upset at the guy making the tape? Why would you not be upset at the offers being made that were recorded and undeniable - except by a Liberal??

We actually get proof of how things are being done down east and you shoot the messenger? Great

[cakadu]

I never said anything about being upset at the guy who made the tape - just pointed out that it is illegal to do so. The police with their wire taps have certain powers conferred upon them, but to my knowledge, ordinary citizens cannot tape one another without getting consent or at least advising you that you are going to be taped. For the record, I haven't heard any lawyers talking about it on the radio and/or TV.

Until we hear the tape in it's entirety and know how it was recorded, how can we be sure that we are being given a straight bill of goods? Is it really proof? I am not now, nor have I ever voted Liberal and likely never will. I am just not prepared to take it at face value, particularly what has come out in the media.

I remember being told, "believe nothing you hear, half of what you read and everything you see."

If it were enough to hang the Liberals, wouldn't logic tell you that we would be going down that path instead of it being put on the back burner?

Harper has done nothing to help himself with this bull dog mentality of "I'm gonna get them." What he has not done is explain how he will do things differently and what measures he will put in place to ensure it doesn't happen in his government under his watch. We can all point out the faults (ad nauseum)it is coming up with the solutions that is much harder.

For example, how many senior bureaucrats will need to be looked at in terms of how they have conducted themselves over the years? How much of the civil service will have to be replaced because they've ridden on the gravy train a little too often? How much of the slate will have to be wiped clean? How prepared is Harper, if he ever gets in, to houseclean? He's had enough problems within his own party - you cannot completely control other people.

[cakadu]

Linda it is never illegal to tape a conversation if you are a part of the conversation.
I think Grewal is a snake in the grass and have no qualms about saying that the Conservative Party would be well rid of him, however, the fact that the Liberals obviously were trying to woo him as they did Belinda points the finger at their inappropriate behaviour.

As for any response to your comments farmers_son, I think Silverback did an excellent job of saying what needed to be said. !!!

[farmers_son]

First, lets review some of the comments made. “…can anyone doubt the whole government is totally rotten? And yet the Liberals remain right up there in the polls!" “The fact is the people from some areas [Ontario] seem to understand that they are probably benefiting from that corrupt system?" “And of course the eastern based media is quite happy to promote these scaremongering tactics and down play all the corruption?” “I have come to the conclusion that people don't care how corrupt a politician or government is as long as they get what they want from the system.” “They know he was rotten to the core but as long as they benefited from it they have no concerns with supporting his conduct !!! Reminds me of Ontario !"

I should then explain my comments. I know a number of Federal civil servants personally. I also know some former provincial and federal politicians personally including ministers. These blanket statements and suggestions that people in Ottawa, the Liberals, our politicians and god knows who else are all corrupt is so far off the mark it is beyond words. It just is not so.

There have been 3 people charged so far in the Ad Scam affair. Chuck Guite and Jean Brault of Groupaction are both charged with six counts of fraud. Quebec advertising executive Paul Coffin is charged with 18 counts of fraud worth more than $2 million. In addition a federal lawsuit, Government of Canada vs Individuals, lists advertising firms and executives involved in the sponsorship program. Jean Brault, Paul Coffin, Jean-Charles Guite, Luc Lemay, Jacques Paradis, Claude Boulay, Gilles Andre Gosselin, Jean Lafleur among others. The Government alleges that the defendants did not carry out their obligations towards the Government of Canada in relation to sponsorship contracts and that they received sums to which they were not entitled or for which they didn't provide any value. The Government is seeking $41 million (demand may increase due to findings of ongoing investigations). That is it. That is far from everyone in Ottawa, or even just the Liberals.

Ad Scam has been public information since May 2002 when Auditor General Sheila Fraser reported federal bureaucrats broke “just about every rule in the book'' in dealings with Groupaction. Since then there has been a Federal Election and the people of this country voted still voted Liberal. That is more a condemnation and a pathetic statement about the Conservatives and Stephen Harper than it is a public acceptance of corruption in government.

I do think corruption is the exception, not the norm. I do think our people in Ottawa for the most part, not all but most, are very dedicated and moral. Those charged will be tried in court.

Broad statements to the effect that corruption is rampant in Ottawa are unfair to the majority of the people who are not.

[cakadu]

Farmers_son, over the years I have learned that you can never really know another person - no matter how well you think you do. People act out of character at one time or another and who knows what people are thinking when they make a decision. We all know lots of good and honorable people that would be unlikely to do anything remotely illegal. Just about all of us have made decisions we later regret or would think twice about in different circumstances. That isn't too say that all of Ottawa is corrupt, not by a long shot. All it takes is a few bad apples though.


Emrald, what I have a hard time getting my head around is the fact that IF the Liberals did in fact ask for the meeting to discuss the terms of these two coming over to the Liberals, then why was Belinda's defection such a horrendous shock to them, particularly her boyfriend? If memory serves me, the Grewal's were presumably in discussions at the same time or slightly prior to Belinda's meetings with Martin.

So, logic tells me that if the Grewals were as innocent as they claim they are, then why weren't these tapes made public straight away, or at the very least given to Harper so that they could do something with those tapes prior to even Belinda's defection?

The other thing is that with all the problems the Liberals are having, if this whole bribery/fraud thing were the least bit actionable, don't you think that it would be getting put into action? The fact that it is almost off the radar screen speaks volumes, doesn't it?

There has been something that hasn't rung true with that whole scenario.

Things are never as they seem.

[cakadu]

Linda there is an inquiry over the Grewal affair but with the media in their hip pocket of course it isn't getting any air time, and won't be completed until fall when there will or will not be an election depending on what Martin has for breakfast on any given day. I think Belinda did a number on the Conservatives because she could not see the leadership coming to her and wanted power if nothing else, and I don't think her being there or being gone will make one bit of difference in the next election.

I know many former politians and current ones, and the ones I know are aa sick of the federal mess as I am sure most of western Canada is.

I know that our province gets a damn poor deal from confederation and with the current thinking in Ottawa it is not going to change.

[silverback]

Cakadu, if you are waiting for the media in this country to take the time to try and explain what the policies of every party is to you, you are going to be pushing daisies waiting. If you really want to know what Harper or any of the others think, why don't you just phone him? Write a letter? Send an email instead of bitching on here? I have a feeling that he might be the only leader to give you an answer.

And quit whinning about the timing of the tapes or what is wrong with them. The full transcript is out there if you want to read it.

I think the problem the Conservatives are having in breaking ground in Ontario is that the original goals of the Reform/Alliance party was to go down there and clean house. Change was a goal many wanted. The problem is that the Government has made government so bloody big that 1/3 of the people (or more) have some interest in seeing things stay the same as they are. If Harper stood up and said he was going to cut 15% of the government down and the waste that goes with it, can you imagine how they would hang him for that down there? Nobody wants to see a friend looking for work, so better not vote for that!

[silverback]

silverback, you make some excellent points, and so do others on this topic. I think we are all fed up with scandals, headlines etc, and would like to see fair, common sense government. The media is going to do everything it can to make Harper look like a buffoon so we will likely never know what he is capable of doing for the country.

[FarmRanger]

Cakadu, even if the Grewels were considering taking up with the Liberals, that doesn’t absolve the Liberals of trying to buy people in this fashion, just because the offer wasn’t accepted. Its pretty clear Belinda accepted an offer of exactly what she obviously wanted, position and power. And yet nobody questions her character, except us few voices in the wilderness.
The bribery/fraud thing is off the radar screen all right, but more likely because of the way it has bit the Conservatives in the rear. Its only getting them bad media coverage, because the focus has been put on the Conservative Grewels, and not on the Liberal bribery. Is there anything further to gain by pursuing it? It’s like a **** victim accused of being the aggressor; if her reputation isn’t impeccable, the defense lawyer has a field day grinding her character into the dirt. And unfortunately the media is only too willing to go along with this same line of thinking to help protect the Liberal government.
I’m just speculating here, but does anyone seriously think the media wouldn’t have sharpened up the knives for any right wing government caught bribing someone to cross the floor?

[silverback]

The manner in which the Liberal party operates makes the Watergate scandal look like a tea party.

Just like an onion, to get to the middle of the corruption you have to go through a lot of layers. (Or is it Lawyers?)

[silverback]

And a lot of tears of frustration !!!!!
I really don't care what party is in power, I just respect honest, common sense government who are there to serve the people, and I haven't seen much of that happening federally lately.
Martin was on the news saying he is going to have a very direct conversation with Bush about Global Warming. If it doesn't do anymore good than any 'talk' he has had about BSE then he may as well save his air !!!

[cakadu]

Amen to that emrald.

I would like to see as much change as the next person and would like the antics of our so-called leadership and leaders to come to an end. Everyone is wanting to see leadership that will amount to something positive and do some good - myself included. I don't believe the Liberals should be absolved and they should be made to pay the piper - any and all who were involved.

I have said many times on this site that I believe that a lot of really good folks go forward and want to try and make the country a better place - it is the political machine that swallows them up, good intentions or not. For the majority of us sitting on the outside, we have no idea of what it is like to be on the inside in a political party at the federal level. Maybe that is why some of the good ones get out - before they get corrupted themselves or because they weary of trying to be effective at representing what their constituents want.

By exchanging ideas and opinions, we gain more insight and I have learned from what people have posted. For me, as it likely is for many of you, it is inconceivable that one would sell themselves out, but it happens around us every day and that is truly sad.

[farmers_son]

Check out the Ethics Commissioners home page at:http://www.parl.gc.ca/oec-bce/site/pages/ethics-e.htm

I would suggest that “the goods ones get out” or put another way people of good character and ability choose not to stay in politics or more likely not to enter politics because of the kind of ill informed, partisan, thoughtless, disrespectful attacks on their character that we see peppered throughout this thread.

Federal politics seem to have reached a new level of dirty deeds. Not that the politicians are corrupted but there is no conscience, limits or honor on the part of the opposition parties in what they will or will not do to smear the party in power.

Implied in the remarks I read here is a rather automatic assumption that a Minister in the Federal government is corrupt or he would not be there. Remarks like good people go forward but they get swallowed up or politicians sell out everyday are part of the problem. That kind of attitude/stigma would tend to keep a lot of people from participating in politics that otherwise would have made a great contribution.

While many seem to see corruption everywhere they turn in the last while I saw examples of MPs displaying examples of very high moral character. Has everyone forgotten Chuck Cadman who represented his constituents in the budget vote when he could have sought personal gain. Or Joe Comuzzi, the Minister of State for Economic Development who resigned his cabinet position because he had promised his constituents to oppose gay marriage.

[silverback]

There is a pretty big difference in smearing someone and disagreeing with the policies or antics someone is displaying.

Tell us where your liberal party is being "smeared"?

If I think back, I would say that calling the conservatives "scary", religous extremists", or "dangerous" is smearing.

Sorry if I am ill-informed f_s. I can only hope to aspire to your level of tolerance and wisdom in the way federal politics is performed.