Gabe Brown

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Irresponsible post IMO. Why the China bashing? Same phos waste and misuse occurs around the world, especially here in the southern hemisphere. U.S. is no different. Industrial ag to blame

It is not China bashing when the stats back up the claims that China is grossly over using fertilizer:
Overuse of fertilizers and pesticides in China linked to farm size A new study finds chemicals are often used inefficiently on small farms in China. Land and migration policies may help explain why the country uses 30 percent of the world's fertilizers and pesticides on 9 percent of global cropland

Chinese farmers use an average of 305 kilograms of nitrogen per hectare per year - more than four times the global average.

etc.
And all of that wasted fertilizer is ending up in the environment. And we get over regulated as a result of the damage they are doing.

[Guest]

Irresponsible post IMO. Why the China bashing? Same phos waste and misuse occurs around the world, especially here in the southern hemisphere. U.S. is no different. Industrial ag to blame

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_zone_(ecology)#:~:text=Use%20of%20chemical%20 fertilizers%20is,can%20also%20contribute%20to%20eu trophication.

[WiltonRanch]

I get the impression Chinese farmers fertilizer application equipment is not the most accurate or efficient. Heck, this is not limited to China neither.
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/chiang-mai-thailand-december-2017-farmer-1006932247

I could neither afford nor justify applying that much fertilizer that inefficiently on my hilly ground.

[Guest]

I get the impression Chinese farmers fertilizer application equipment is not the most accurate or efficient. Heck, this is not limited to China neither.
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/chiang-mai-thailand-december-2017-farmer-1006932247

I could neither afford nor justify applying that much fertilizer that inefficiently on my hilly ground.

A few years ago we imported some polymer coated urea from China similar to ESN. More recently got some ESN through Nutrien. Did some ammonia release rate tests to compare with sulfur coated urea,methylated urea and a couple other products. We found the ESN had the best stable release rate profile enabling higher rates of application with much less loss to leaching or volatilization. Now trying Neem oil coated urea. About 1 litre/tonne. Also slow release effect. Idea originated in India where most urea is neem oil coated because the govt subsidizes N fertilizer to approx 70% so they want efficient use. How's that compare to the rising carbon tax in Can't Nada.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

And by sufficiently dense to be economical you mean for the required amount currently used in most mainstream farming practices.

No, poor choice of words on my part.
I was referring to the concentrations of the deposits. Needs to be rich enough that the energy input is justified. Not mining 1000's of tonnes of ore to get one tonne of phosphate. Or millions of cubic meters of sea water.

[WiltonRanch]

No, poor choice of words on my part.
I was referring to the concentrations of the deposits. Needs to be rich enough that the energy input is justified. Not mining 1000's of tonnes of ore to get one tonne of phosphate. Or millions of cubic meters of sea water.

Speaking of seawater I see the Chinese have perfected a membrane that can filter out uranium from seawater. Game changer if it’s true.

[LEP]

A few years ago we imported some polymer coated urea from China similar to ESN. More recently got some ESN through Nutrien. Did some ammonia release rate tests to compare with sulfur coated urea,methylated urea and a couple other products. We found the ESN had the best stable release rate profile enabling higher rates of application with much less loss to leaching or volatilization. Now trying Neem oil coated urea. About 1 litre/tonne. Also slow release effect. Idea originated in India where most urea is neem oil coated because the govt subsidizes N fertilizer to approx 70% so they want efficient use. How's that compare to the rising carbon tax in Can't Nada.

We have been using superU for three years now. It is a hell of a premium but felt there were fewer losses plus the right thing to do. I would be very interested to see if neem treated urea comes close to the same results.

Might have to get me some neem.

[furrowtickler]

Nitrogen stabilizers have been around for many years, more and more guys using them

There is ESN , super U , contain N , agrotain and a few others . Some can be used on dry N , liquid N and forms for NH3 . Some are reasonably priced , others very expensive.
Nitrogen management in western Canada is being used far more than some realize . It’s a good way to manage nitrogen effectively and prevent losses both from volatilizations and leeching .

Other products like humics and Ligno also help stabilize N fairly effective.

Combine variable rate tech that many are using and most farms in western Canada are way farther ahead than most would assume

[tweety]

Tweety,
A lot of what Gabe says defies the laws of physics, and needs to be taken with the appropriate sized grain of salt. But that doesn't mean the rest of it has no value.

The bible is almost entirely preposterously unbelievable impossible fairytales with no basis in reality.
But that doesn't mean that the golden rules have no merit.

I started the reply with - So basic soil science is dissenting? Diversity - yes. Rotation - yes. Stop tilling - yes. Moisture convservation - yes. Stop grazing till it looks like summerfallow - yes. Always has been that way.

He is bringing not much new to the table. He just figured out how to monetize the information. The best lies are wrapped in truth.

Tom4CWB, about 10 lbs an acre from lightning. Considering it didn't rain last year - much less then that.

[WiltonRanch]

I’ve been reading his book and the impression I get is he’s akin to that guy pushing Jerusalem Artichokes. I’d like to believe what he claims and some is most definitely correct but it’s the utter bullshit that puts the plausible at question. I am no soil scientist but I know you won’t build soil om 5% in 20 years or less. It doesn’t work that way. I would like some actual university experiments and data to back up his claims cause I’d still like to see if his systems actually do what’s claimed. It would help my operation in a carbon constrained future. Another thing he pushes is to phase out fertilizer use, and I think this is a dangerous proposition. Sure, you can possibly get your soil working with diverse blends of plants to the point it provides all but if you have a 200 year plan like he claims your future generations will be screwed with mined out soils. All said his book is still a great read especially if you have half an idea and a bit critical. For someone wet behind the ears and a bit naive they might get led down the garden path.

[WiltonRanch]

Here’s an article from Washington State university. Has some links to published papers which question and refute some of his erroneous claims. I also suggest listening to him talk on YouTube as there’s enough videos of him there. Make up your own mind. Myself I’ll try a couple experiments with what I know works but any of the other stuff is fantasy.
https://csanr.wsu.edu/regen-ag-solid-principles-extraordinary-claims/

[Sheepwheat]

Here’s an article from Washington State university. Has some links to published papers which question and refute some of his erroneous claims. I also suggest listening to him talk on YouTube as there’s enough videos of him there. Make up your own mind. Myself I’ll try a couple experiments with what I know works but any of the other stuff is fantasy.
https://csanr.wsu.edu/regen-ag-solid-principles-extraordinary-claims/

Interesting links! I read through it and found it awesome.

But.

When he writes about the biomass production impossibility regarding organic matter increases, he only talked about the ABOVE GROUND PORTION OF PLANT MATERIAL. So in my view, he is missing at least HALF of biomass production. That would certainly change his theory that organic matter increases are impossible.

Roots are huge contributors to the tonnage of plant matter produced. I’m not really siding either way, but you simply can’t discount the roots!

[Sheepwheat]

Interesting links! I read through it and found it awesome.

But.

When he writes about the biomass production impossibility regarding organic matter increases, he only talked about the ABOVE GROUND PORTION OF PLANT MATERIAL. So in my view, he is missing at least HALF of biomass production. That would certainly change his theory that organic matter increases are impossible.

Roots are huge contributors to the tonnage of plant matter produced. I’m not really siding either way, but you simply can’t discount the roots!

Wow I’m reading comments now. I don’t reailize they were there. The article is pretty contentious to quite a few people on there, who mention roots, and exudates of micro flora which make up to 40% of organic matter, once you get the, pumping! etc. Interesting stuff!

[WiltonRanch]

Wow I’m reading comments now. I don’t reailize they were there. The article is pretty contentious to quite a few people on there, who mention roots, and exudates of micro flora which make up to 40% of organic matter, once you get the, pumping! etc. Interesting stuff!

Very much so. I posted this as the author presented some peer reviewed papers on the matter but nothing was cast in stone either way. Soil organic matter can be increased but not quickly like what Gabe claims. Study done in uk where high residue crops grown with high fertility and everything returned to the soil. Over course of 30 years soil om increase was 1%. Now maybe incorporating livestock and more diversity of plants into the equation does something magical but I really don’t know. Judging from what I know running cows and them grazing and crapping there is something there still which benefits the land. It is hard to quantify except I was able to grow a 70 bu canola crop on a piece of average ground with moderate fertility and great cereal crops because of growing and feeding greenfeed on said land for 10 years. Lots of my ground is very high in calcium and ph 6” and down is 8. These said lands yield drastically improve for several years after being in a perennial forage mixture. What is going on there? Also, perennial forages are really only decent for maybe 4 years and decline. I’ve tried adding fertility to improve yield but any attempt hasn’t shown a substantial gain. Though, if I spray it out and crop it again it produces better than the stubble beside it with similar fertility. Cool discussion

[AlbertaFarmer5]

It is.

So we use bees to gather nectar from flowers. The supply is so difuse and such small quantities, that humans could never do it efficiently enough to get enough energy to be worth while, but millions of bees doing so is quite efficient.

Bats and seabirds have been accumulating phosphate in guana deposits from ( I assume) the sea animals they eat. Taking it from the environment where it is too difuse for humans to harvest economically, and concentrating it, asking nothing in return.

Could this be the future, encouraging an ecosystem where bats and birds can harvest phosphate and deposit it in the equivalent of hives for us to harvest. Perhaps, their prey or the predators could be tweaked to increase the yield, as we have done with every other domesticated species.

Keeping in mind that phosphorus is the 11th most abundant element on earth. We aren't going to run out, just run out of reserves that are sufficiently dense to be economical.

Apparently my suggestion wasn't so crazy after all.

https://phys.org/news/2022-04-wildlife-phosphorus-crisis.amp