Gabe Brown

[Sheepwheat]

Not cattle but with our sheep we gross way better than with grain, and net way, way better than with grain because of minimal inputs. It’s not even remotely comparable. But we are direct marketing as well. Our numbers are the same as if a cattle guy sold his calf at six months of age for $3500 to $4000. I’m sure this would change the whole story.

It’s actually something I can’t get my head around. That ppl insist on cows vs. sheep. Sheep are at least twice as productive per acre $ wise than cows, and that is just using live market values.

I never grossed over two grand an acre with any grain crop I ever grew. That is with direct marketing every lamb though, cut the number in half at live prices. For us, it works. For more it should. But ppl have hang ups for sure.

[Landdownunder]

FYI some cattle prices oz.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Not cattle but with our sheep we gross way better than with grain, and net way, way better than with grain because of minimal inputs. It’s not even remotely comparable. But we are direct marketing as well. Our numbers are the same as if a cattle guy sold his calf at six months of age for $3500 to $4000. I’m sure this would change the whole story.

It’s actually something I can’t get my head around. That ppl insist on cows vs. sheep. Sheep are at least twice as productive per acre $ wise than cows, and that is just using live market values.

I never grossed over two grand an acre with any grain crop I ever grew. That is with direct marketing every lamb though, cut the number in half at live prices. For us, it works. For more it should. But ppl have hang ups for sure.

I'm sold on the economics of sheep farming. In fact, our grade 7 teacher was an avid sheep farmer and we had to do a project on the economics of our own mythical sheep farm.

I have a hang up with direct marketing. I'm not a people person, I have no patience for travelling around trying to find customers, or spending a day at a farmers market etc. when there are jobs to be done at the farm. I'm not a salesman. That doesn't mean that one couldn't find a partner who does posess those skills.
And it is a niche market. It appears that you have created a market, and are exploiting it to the fullest. But if a handful of producers all decide to join you, the niche market will get crowded in a hurry. I always assume that I will be the straw that breaks the camels back if I jump in.

And how do you deal with the predators? Sheep have a bad habit of becoming coyote supper around here, Or Wolf, or cougar, not sure about the bears?

[TASFarms]

I'm sold on the economics of sheep farming. In fact, our grade 7 teacher was an avid sheep farmer and we had to do a project on the economics of our own mythical sheep farm.

I have a hang up with direct marketing. I'm not a people person, I have no patience for travelling around trying to find customers, or spending a day at a farmers market etc. when there are jobs to be done at the farm. I'm not a salesman. That doesn't mean that one couldn't find a partner who does posess those skills.
And it is a niche market. It appears that you have created a market, and are exploiting it to the fullest. But if a handful of producers all decide to join you, the niche market will get crowded in a hurry. I always assume that I will be the straw that breaks the camels back if I jump in.

And how do you deal with the predators? Sheep have a bad habit of becoming coyote supper around here, Or Wolf, or cougar, not sure about the bears?

Good dogs take care of coyotes

[shtferbrains]

FYI some cattle prices oz.

[ATTACH]9379[/ATTACH]

Hey Mallee

Great to see your posts.

You add a lot.

Can you explain a little more as to what you have in the circle. 2 animals?
Fed steers?

Also who are the main cattle processors in Oz?

[Sheepwheat]

I'm sold on the economics of sheep farming. In fact, our grade 7 teacher was an avid sheep farmer and we had to do a project on the economics of our own mythical sheep farm.

I have a hang up with direct marketing. I'm not a people person, I have no patience for travelling around trying to find customers, or spending a day at a farmers market etc. when there are jobs to be done at the farm. I'm not a salesman. That doesn't mean that one couldn't find a partner who does posess those skills.
And it is a niche market. It appears that you have created a market, and are exploiting it to the fullest. But if a handful of producers all decide to join you, the niche market will get crowded in a hurry. I always assume that I will be the straw that breaks the camels back if I jump in.

And how do you deal with the predators? Sheep have a bad habit of becoming coyote supper around here, Or Wolf, or cougar, not sure about the bears?

Lol. I’m not a ppl person either. At least that’s what I thought. Most contacts are made by phone or email. Deliveries, drop offs, sample drops are done by us when we are in the city anyway, or we use a courier.

Because we import 60% of the lamb we consume in Canada, that alone makes it a niche. You have a fair point on the niche thing we are doing, but there is no other farm we know of doing what we do, especially on the scale we are spooning it. Most don’t try very hard, for good reason. It is tough, I ain’t gunna lie, to establish your own markets. But our farm being first in markets, and having a brand and differentiated from other lamb suppliers, gives us a huge advantage. I think it’ll stick. When we call places that buy or serve or sell lamb, I always say I am not trying to step on toes, but just so you know we have over a dozen lamb products in inventory. Many, many responses are, well we sell a lot of lamb but our current suppliers never have inventory, or the current suppliers only has chops, etc. So right now we are tapping into a couple more markets because of this.

Finally, there is a well know outfit that supplies meat in Saskatchewan that claims local lamb. In fact they buy their lamb from a feedlot, the feedlot guy buys his lamb from across western Canada. Ppl are figuring this out, and are not impressed. We have come to the aid of places burnt by this outfit. Honesty is important. If you eat Red Barn Family Farm lamb, it was born and raised on our farm. Always. People like that. Truly local.

Anyhow, sorry for rambling.

Regarding predators. Good fences. As in good fences. That is step one. Large guard dogs, lots of them. The more the merrier. A shepherd that is a trapper and hunter is helpful too. Since we got the dogs, we have lost exactly zero lambs to predators. I whack and stack coyotes all winter long. Keep that herd thin and scared of humans. Lol Regarding bears. I used to see bear tracks in the mud and would get nervous. But nada. The dogs are amazing. No animal wants to take on five or six 120 plus lb dogs. Side benefit of dogs, is you let a couple breed and end up with pups to sell. I mean you got and are feeding them anyway, may as well make a few bucks along the way.

[foragefarmer]

Don't conflate poor management and the pitiful economics of cow calf, with the methods being discussed i this thread.

For most of 20 years now, the economics of cow calf haven't justified spending big money on fertilzer and inputs. For many of those years, it was all about survival, there was nothing left to spend on fertilizer. And that begins a downward spiral that is difficult to ever recover from. I doubt it was ever a conscious decision to go without. Unlike your operation where you are harvesting a high value per acre grass seed, that most years easily pays for the inputs.

And if your neighbor is like most around here, almost all of the manure ends up within a few hundred yards of the main farm, the rest deposited in clumps of trees and sloughs. What little ends up back on the fields is inconsequential compared to what has been removed over the decades. That is not remotely close to regenerative ag. Don't compare that to what Gabe is preaching and practicing. The squandered opportunity of many cash strapped cattle operations for the long term sustainability of the land is just sad.

The one cow calf operation which is one of the biggest in Manitoba who bales our straw is run by three brothers in their thirties with young families.

Very successful operation they grow 100's of acres of silage corn which would have fertilizer and chemicals applied in order to produce the feed they require for their vast herd.

If their planting silage corn so are other cow calf operations in Manitoba. Yes of coarse there are some cow calf operators struggling in Manitoba who never recovered from BSE but there are also those that are very successful. Cow calf producers are so very important for rural Manitoba socially and economically.

The economic spin off from our forage seed farm and the four cow calf operators who we sell straw to is enormous for the province of Manitoba . No model has been brought up on the thread of the economic success using Gabe's method here in Manitoba to which we could compare those numbers to. But to those Manitobans who are planning to go Gabe's route or are using it all the best to you and I wish you success.

Based on the posts on here there doesn't seem to be any one willing to make the effort to go full Gabe as it is so labor intense. Even the fellow Manitoban of years gone by wants the summers off. Which I fully get. I personally know the amount of hard work involved in a cow calf operation as we had cattle up to 1999.

[AllisWD45]

Not cattle but with our sheep we gross way better than with grain, and net way, way better than with grain because of minimal inputs. It’s not even remotely comparable. But we are direct marketing as well. Our numbers are the same as if a cattle guy sold his calf at six months of age for $3500 to $4000. I’m sure this would change the whole story.

It’s actually something I can’t get my head around. That ppl insist on cows vs. sheep. Sheep are at least twice as productive per acre $ wise than cows, and that is just using live market values.

I never grossed over two grand an acre with any grain crop I ever grew. That is with direct marketing every lamb though, cut the number in half at live prices. For us, it works. For more it should. But ppl have hang ups for sure.

There is an old saying sheep are for making money. Cows are for showing wealth. Very true in many cultures in the world. Would like to hear Mallees opinion on this.

[Sheepwheat]

There is an old saying sheep are for making money. Cows are for showing wealth. Very true in many cultures in the world. Would like to hear Mallees opinion on this.

Lol, maybe. I think they can make money. I think cows can make money. I think grain, hay, lillies, garlic, firewood, it all can make you money.

6 sheep per cow. 1.6 at least lambs per ewe. 9.6 lambs then per cow. 1000 lbs minimum of lamb per cow, in four to six months. I’ve yet to meet a four month old thousand lb plus calf!

Breed replacement ewe lambs at six months to lamb at a year old.

And so on.

Back to gabe brown.

I think he probably does pretty good with book sales, speaking events etc. But he does seem a straight shooter.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

The one cow calf operation which is one of the biggest in Manitoba who bales our straw is run by three brothers in their thirties with young families.

Very successful operation they grow 100's of acres of silage corn which would have fertilizer and chemicals applied in order to produce the feed they require for their vast herd.

If their planting silage corn so are other cow calf operations in Manitoba. Yes of coarse there are some cow calf operators struggling in Manitoba who never recovered from BSE but there are also those that are very successful. Cow calf producers are so very important for rural Manitoba socially and economically.

The economic spin off from our forage seed farm and the four cow calf operators who we sell straw to is enormous for the province of Manitoba . No model has been brought up on the thread of the economic success using Gabe's method here in Manitoba to which we could compare those numbers to. But to those Manitobans who are planning to go Gabe's route or are using it all the best to you and I wish you success.

Based on the posts on here there doesn't seem to be any one willing to make the effort to go full Gabe as it is so labor intense. Even the fellow Manitoban of years gone by wants the summers off. Which I fully get. I personally know the amount of hard work involved in a cow calf operation as we had cattle up to 1999.

I think you have it backwards. At least according to Gabe Brown himself, his goal is the least amount of labour, not to make it more labour intensive. Not feeding livestock all winter, not processing them for vaccines, not adding supplements, not seeding, fertilizing, spraying, cutting, baling, hauling, stacking, processing, hauling manure back out, not baby sitting calving cows etc. More production off less acres, therefore less trucking cattle or feed all over, etc.
There is a good reason why he has time to go on the speaker circuit.

And I have conversed with Gabe in the past. Much respect for his approach. A lot of good ideas, many of which could apply to most operations and climates with some tweaking.

[Sheepwheat]

I think you have it backwards. At least according to Gabe Brown himself, his goal is the least amount of labour, not to make it more labour intensive. Not feeding livestock all winter, not processing them for vaccines, not adding supplements, not seeding, fertilizing, spraying, cutting, baling, hauling, stacking, processing, hauling manure back out, not baby sitting calving cows etc. More production off less acres, therefore less trucking cattle or feed all over, etc.
There is a good reason why he has time to go on the speaker circuit.

And I have conversed with Gabe in the past. Much respect for his approach. A lot of good ideas, many of which could apply to most operations and climates with some tweaking.

Gabes main thrust is soil armour. Cover that soil. Graze HARD and long rests. Leave the soil covered. When he says covered, he means it. COVERED!

My current focus is to extend the grazing period as much as possible. Stockpile natural areas. Seed party mixes on field areas post harvest. It will be dependent on the type of fall and winter of course. This fall would have been awesome. Eliminating put up feed would be the goal. Hard in the snow zone. But I’ve seen guys grazing corn in winter with sheep.

Baby steps for us. Starting with feeding out on pasture.

An acquaintance we know went from grain to sheep in the early 2000’s. They run about 700 ewes. They until two years ago, owned no tractor. They borrowed a tractor to place bales on hilltops, then walked out and rolled the bales down the hills as required.

Me. I don’t need much to be happy, so a 1970’s Deere is sufficient. I do want to make a bale unroller next year.

Lotsa ways to skin a cat, er ahem, farm.

[Blaithin]

I frost seeded a couple years ago. Areas that were overgrazed the previous year and had no cover, went out in April and spread it on with a lawn fertilizer thingy. Fed the cows on top of it for the last month.

Had surprisingly good results considering and it was interesting to see it in different parts. I spread on an alfalfa/vetch/sainfoin mix and then a bunch of cheapo red clover. Some areas the alfalfa exploded, other places it was mostly clover, one spot the vetch and sainfoin showed up. It will be interesting to see how it survived this year.

I’ve also heard of people putting the clover in the mineral and letting the cows spread it by manure. I think that would be the least effective way to do it.

Another thing I try and do when I can, is get a cover in the yard when the livestock are gone. So the travelled areas around the waterer, gateways, corral, etc. Last time I took some baggies of peas and barley from work and broadcast them on the dirt and raked it a bit. The peas kind of struggled and then fizzled out mostly, I think from being so shallow, and then the barley just destroyed them. The barley exploded and turned into a jungle. When the calves were weaned and put in that pasture they ate off my water trough dead spot barley for at least two days!

When you start trying to cover all the bare ground you can see, it’s actually quite neat what ways you can come up with. It doesn’t have to be a bunch of big, shiny equipment. A salt spreader on a truck, some heels of bins and bags, and a herd of hooves can do a good job.

[Landdownunder]

FYI some cattle prices oz.

[ATTACH]9379[/ATTACH]

Red price received for one an8,al he was a large steer as you can see

[Braveheart]

I frost seeded a couple years ago. Areas that were overgrazed the previous year and had no cover, went out in April and spread it on with a lawn fertilizer thingy. Fed the cows on top of it for the last month.

Had surprisingly good results considering and it was interesting to see it in different parts. I spread on an alfalfa/vetch/sainfoin mix and then a bunch of cheapo red clover. Some areas the alfalfa exploded, other places it was mostly clover, one spot the vetch and sainfoin showed up. It will be interesting to see how it survived this year.

I’ve also heard of people putting the clover in the mineral and letting the cows spread it by manure. I think that would be the least effective way to do it.

Another thing I try and do when I can, is get a cover in the yard when the livestock are gone. So the travelled areas around the waterer, gateways, corral, etc. Last time I took some baggies of peas and barley from work and broadcast them on the dirt and raked it a bit. The peas kind of struggled and then fizzled out mostly, I think from being so shallow, and then the barley just destroyed them. The barley exploded and turned into a jungle. When the calves were weaned and put in that pasture they ate off my water trough dead spot barley for at least two days!

When you start trying to cover all the bare ground you can see, it’s actually quite neat what ways you can come up with. It doesn’t have to be a bunch of big, shiny equipment. A salt spreader on a truck, some heels of bins and bags, and a herd of hooves can do a good job.

There is nothing better for planting forages than the cow hoof. When we had cattle we used to broadcast cicer milk vetch and/or birdsfoot trefoil around the mineral feeder. Our paddocks ended up with abundant non bloating legumes.

Also, bare ground doesn't have to be covered with a growing plant. A cow's impact is created by 4 hooves and a mouth. The litter left from the cow stepping on the forage (but not eating) is invaluable.

[tweety]

It’s aggravating.

“I don’t know about it. I don’t understand it. I’m not interested in it. So obvs it won’t work and I’m going to tell everyone how it won’t work.”

Also the classic you don’t know because you live somewhere else and here is different. Always nice to be hit with that. (FYI I grew up in Manitoba ForageFarmer)

Time is the big kicker, I agree Tubs. I don’t have any interest in tying myself to high density, frequent moves. Summer is kind of time off with only weeklyish pasture checks required! The idea of every day or twice a day moves is blah. But the great thing about that sort of model is you do it however you want, your results might to just happen slower.

At the end of the day it’s completely understandable that not everyone wants to invest the time required. It’s completely understandable that not everyone finds it interesting. It’s completely understandable that not everyone’s debt load will allow them to branch out so far from their current business model.

None of these are supportive reasons for “it won’t work here” though. It won’t work for all people true, but it’s a management style that can be tweaked to work pretty much everywhere. The constant flood of people who aren’t interested or understand it that feel they need to tell people who are how silly they are and what a waste of time it is can be very frustrating and discouraging.

Everyone’s got different priorities in their methods.

You don't have to look very deep to know a lot of what he says is for a fantastic speaking fee. He has made far more on book sales and speaking then cows.

There have been plenty of soil science rebuttals if you take the time to read them. But then science has never been that strong with this crowd.