Originally posted by AlbertaFarmer5
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Originally posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View PostThis soil is so devoid of minerals that we have to supplement generously, with mineral formulated for this far west, and add Selenium to the salt and mineral at rates well beyond the accepted maximum, and the calves need selenium within a few days of birth. White muscle was a very real problem before that.
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Originally posted by WiltonRanch View PostGreat point. Only way I see the cow calf sector surviving in my general area is in a mixed operation, and most herds around have a grain revenue as well. Gabe’s message is integrating the two to make them compliment one another more and make more profit. We ran a lot more cattle 5 years ago on very reasonable grazing and couldn’t justify it. Now we run less than half the cows and use them to complement the grain side. Cost per cow is considerably less than before. My goal is to structure it so there is really no opportunity cost to having a cow herd in a grain operation. More or less the cows are the clean up crew and nutrient cyclers like the microorganisms in the soil.
We need to look at them as a way to turn inedible, unmarketable, or unharvestable growth into something we can market, and improve the land at the same time, exactly as you are describing.
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And as for vaccines, talk to the old timers about the wrecks they had before vaccinations became common. That was about as close to low intensity holistic livestock farming as possible too.
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Crop rotation including a pulse crop on your good crop land is as sustainable as your going to get. I have a field that had peas in 2020 with a maintenance application of P and S. In 2021 this land got rr canola with a modest application of 230/lb of NPS blend. This land produced 30-40 bu/ac in a drought and soil test levels in late fall are good (60 lb/ac in top 6" of N but does call to continue P applications). In 22 it will get seeded to HRS wheat with a very modest application of fertilizer. In most cases that is as good as it gets. Manure is great if you can get it but it is very expensive to haul. Applied some to a rented field from a buddy's yard across road this fall. I hauled with rented spreader behind my tractor and he loaded with his track loader. Went good until the track loader broke down and now had a rented spreader and no track loader so cost per load going up. He used his front end loader to finish the day but not near as fast as track loader so affected the economics of the whole operation. Neither field has fencing around them so grazing not an economical operation.
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The gabe brown idea takes the manure to the field in the animals. Intensive grazing. Hundreds of thousands of lbs of animals per acre, moving them at least daily. Modifications are made for different areas. Steve Kenyon in Alberta is a good guy to watch as well.
There is so much more to this than a shallow glance. It’s frustrating seeing some of the responses, as it is obvious they aren’t very familiar with the system; it sure is easy to bash it when you don’t have a complete picture.
And that’s ok, it’s not everyone’s cup of tea to have animals.
It’s interesting for sure.
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Originally posted by Sheepwheat View PostThe gabe brown idea takes the manure to the field in the animals. Intensive grazing. Hundreds of thousands of lbs of animals per acre, moving them at least daily. Modifications are made for different areas. Steve Kenyon in Alberta is a good guy to watch as well.
There is so much more to this than a shallow glance. It’s frustrating seeing some of the responses, as it is obvious they aren’t very familiar with the system; it sure is easy to bash it when you don’t have a complete picture.
And that’s ok, it’s not everyone’s cup of tea to have animals.
It’s interesting for sure.
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Originally posted by tubs View PostIt takes time everyday to do this and lets face it most people don not want to be tied down like that .
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Originally posted by tubs View PostIt takes time everyday to do this and lets face it most people don not want to be tied down like that .
Saw a system like that online somewhere. A latch can be set to release the gate at set times.
But you’re right it does mainly come down to the TYPE OF PERSON one is! We’re not all like woodland after all. Lol
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Originally posted by Sheepwheat View PostThe gabe brown idea takes the manure to the field in the animals. Intensive grazing. Hundreds of thousands of lbs of animals per acre, moving them at least daily. Modifications are made for different areas. Steve Kenyon in Alberta is a good guy to watch as well.
There is so much more to this than a shallow glance. It’s frustrating seeing some of the responses, as it is obvious they aren’t very familiar with the system; it sure is easy to bash it when you don’t have a complete picture.
And that’s ok, it’s not everyone’s cup of tea to have animals.
It’s interesting for sure.
“I don’t know about it. I don’t understand it. I’m not interested in it. So obvs it won’t work and I’m going to tell everyone how it won’t work.â€
Also the classic you don’t know because you live somewhere else and here is different. Always nice to be hit with that. (FYI I grew up in Manitoba ForageFarmer)
Time is the big kicker, I agree Tubs. I don’t have any interest in tying myself to high density, frequent moves. Summer is kind of time off with only weeklyish pasture checks required! The idea of every day or twice a day moves is blah. But the great thing about that sort of model is you do it however you want, your results might to just happen slower.
At the end of the day it’s completely understandable that not everyone wants to invest the time required. It’s completely understandable that not everyone finds it interesting. It’s completely understandable that not everyone’s debt load will allow them to branch out so far from their current business model.
None of these are supportive reasons for “it won’t work here†though. It won’t work for all people true, but it’s a management style that can be tweaked to work pretty much everywhere. The constant flood of people who aren’t interested or understand it that feel they need to tell people who are how silly they are and what a waste of time it is can be very frustrating and discouraging.
Everyone’s got different priorities in their methods.
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With cow herds there’s two types of operators. Those who are cattlemen/cattlewomen and those who keep cows. There’s a certain skill set and personality which separates the two.
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Originally posted by Blaithin View PostIt’s aggravating.
“I don’t know about it. I don’t understand it. I’m not interested in it. So obvs it won’t work and I’m going to tell everyone how it won’t work.â€
Also the classic you don’t know because you live somewhere else and here is different. Always nice to be hit with that. (FYI I grew up in Manitoba ForageFarmer)
Time is the big kicker, I agree Tubs. I don’t have any interest in tying myself to high density, frequent moves. Summer is kind of time off with only weeklyish pasture checks required! The idea of every day or twice a day moves is blah. But the great thing about that sort of model is you do it however you want, your results might to just happen slower.
At the end of the day it’s completely understandable that not everyone wants to invest the time required. It’s completely understandable that not everyone finds it interesting. It’s completely understandable that not everyone’s debt load will allow them to branch out so far from their current business model.
None of these are supportive reasons for “it won’t work here†though. It won’t work for all people true, but it’s a management style that can be tweaked to work pretty much everywhere. The constant flood of people who aren’t interested or understand it that feel they need to tell people who are how silly they are and what a waste of time it is can be very frustrating and discouraging.
Everyone’s got different priorities in their methods.
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Originally posted by Sheepwheat View PostPrecisely. But automation allows for more freedom. Automated gate systems with one wire electric are pretty cool.
Saw a system like that online somewhere. A latch can be set to release the gate at set times.
But you’re right it does mainly come down to the TYPE OF PERSON one is! We’re not all like woodland after all. Lol
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Taking this the other direction.
I'm mostly raising grain for animal feed( feed wheat ad feed barley), even half of the canola ends up as meal being fed to an animal.
Yet as I noted above, I can't make the economics of feeding cows directly work at these land and input prices. Yet somehow, I can spend all the fuel and equipment and labour to harvest the grain, and ship it across the province where someone else processes it, maybe trucks it again, and feeds it to livestock.
So, In theory, it should be possible to feed the livestock directly off the land and make even more.
Is anyone doing high input cattle agriculture, and making more per acre than grain?
Seeding the best more productive land for grazing, lots of fertilizer, species that will produce all spring, summer and fall, and stay palatable in the off season, really micro managing the production.
Is it lack of desire to try it, and pour the $'s into grazing land, or is it just not possible to gross the same $ per acre with grass/legumes so we don't do it?
In theory, we can grow some spectacular hay crops out here, 10 bales/acre in one cutting isn't unheard of. What is unheard of is heavy hay crops being put up in good condition so that it is worth anything in the end. It takes so long to cure a heavy crop, that it inevitably is ruined by rains by the time it is baled. Silage and silage bales being great for feeding your own livestock, but not very marketable.
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Originally posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View PostTaking this the other direction.
I'm mostly raising grain for animal feed( feed wheat ad feed barley), even half of the canola ends up as meal being fed to an animal.
Yet as I noted above, I can't make the economics of feeding cows directly work at these land and input prices. Yet somehow, I can spend all the fuel and equipment and labour to harvest the grain, and ship it across the province where someone else processes it, maybe trucks it again, and feeds it to livestock.
So, In theory, it should be possible to feed the livestock directly off the land and make even more.
Is anyone doing high input cattle agriculture, and making more per acre than grain?
Seeding the best more productive land for grazing, lots of fertilizer, species that will produce all spring, summer and fall, and stay palatable in the off season, really micro managing the production.
Is it lack of desire to try it, and pour the $'s into grazing land, or is it just not possible to gross the same $ per acre with grass/legumes so we don't do it?
In theory, we can grow some spectacular hay crops out here, 10 bales/acre in one cutting isn't unheard of. What is unheard of is heavy hay crops being put up in good condition so that it is worth anything in the end. It takes so long to cure a heavy crop, that it inevitably is ruined by rains by the time it is baled. Silage and silage bales being great for feeding your own livestock, but not very marketable.
Funny how we discuss doing things like swath grazing and Gabe brown regenerative methods to save money but can pivot and justify high intensity systems which can also be efficient in taking advantage of certain synergies. Agriculture isn’t a one system works for everywhere business.
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