• You will need to login or register before you can post a message. If you already have an Agriville account login by clicking the login icon on the top right corner of the page. If you are a new user you will need to Register.

The numbers Alberta separatists don’t want you to see

Collapse
X
Collapse
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • chuckChuck
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2006
    • 13083

    The numbers Alberta separatists don’t want you to see

    The numbers Alberta separatists don’t want you to see

    Gary Mason

    For about a year now, Lennie Kaplan has been trying to get answers to a question: what kind of cost-benefit analysis has the Alberta United Conservative Party government done on the potential impact of separation?
    Mr. Kaplan wasn’t just some nobody asking. He was a former senior manager in the fiscal and economic policy division of Alberta’s Ministry of Treasury Board and Finance. Part of that role was exploring ways to reform current federal-provincial fiscal arrangements.
    In other words, he knew numbers and had a better grasp than most of what the breakdown of costs between Alberta ([url]https://www.theglobeandmail.com/topics/alberta/[/url]) and Ottawa looked like. More importantly, he had a sense of what the math might add up to if the province was to seek independence.
    At the very least, he reasoned, any provincial government facing the threat of separation would surely be doing deep dives on what it would all mean for Albertans.


    Earlier this year, he sent off an access to information request to the government asking for: “All memoranda, briefing notes, studies, reports, PowerPoint presentations, e-mails, attachments, spreadsheets and texts prepared by or for the Executive Council or received by Executive Council showing the economic and fiscal impacts on Alberta arising from Alberta’s independence/separation/sovereignty/sovereignty association from Canada, including but not confined to … [such] options as Alberta becoming a separate country, Alberta joining Saskatchewan and Manitoba as a separate country and Alberta becoming a state under the United States of America.”
    Recently he got a response: “After a thorough search was conducted by Executive Council staff, no records responsive to your request were located.”

    So, faced with an existential threat in the form of possibly separating from Canada, the Alberta government had done no cost-benefit analysis of what that could mean for residents. You know, the people whose lives would be profoundly impacted by such a move. Something that would put a lie to the preposterously fanciful numbers that the Alberta Prosperity Project offered up in its economic blueprint for the province as an independent nation.

    Last July, the APP released a fiscal plan projecting a surplus in the billions within one year of separation. The group said Alberta’s economy could double within 20 years and the province would have the highest per capita GDP of any country in the world.

    But now Mr. Kaplan has provided to The Globe and Mail his own preliminary calculations that show separation would be an economic disaster. His analysis indicates independence would reduce the Alberta economy – or nominal GDP – by $39.1-billion or 7.2 per cent in the first full year as an independent country, leading to a 4.8-per-cent contraction in Albertans’ household disposable income.
    Other highlights of his research: Total employment in the province would fall by 45,703 jobs in year one of independence; personal income per person would fall by 6.2 per cent; retail sales would fall by 8.2 per cent; housing starts would fall by 10.5 per cent; residential investment would fall by 14.5 per cent, while nominal business investment would decline by 8 per cent. In his analysis, Mr. Kaplan points to at least a dozen economic metrics that are all negative if separation is pursued.
    University of Calgary economist Trevor Tombe has also done some preliminary forecasting. He estimated there would be a 5-per-cent increase in the cost of importing to, or exporting from, Alberta, which would shrink the province’s economy by roughly 4 per cent in 2026, a year he used for illustrative purposes.

    Mr. Kaplan, meantime, said a separate Alberta would also likely lose protections under current Canadian internal and international trade agreements and be required to negotiate new pipeline access and supply-chain arrangements. “I estimate that this could effectively increase Alberta’s trade costs by 12 per cent in 2028,” he wrote in an article released this week.
    Premier Danielle Smith recently had her own surprise for the separatists, saying that the start-up costs for an independent Alberta would be in the neighbourhood of $400-billion. Just assuming its share of the national debt, she estimated, would be about $170-billion. And then the numbers only get worse from there.
    It was good to see Ms. Smith taking a position on this matter. As encouraging – in the spirit of better late than never – is thatshe announced the government will conduct its own analysis of what independence would cost Alberta. The government is leaning toward having a blue-ribbon panel of experts look at the data and give the public an unbiased assessment of independence’s impact.
    The government could do worse than calling up Mr. Tombe and Mr. Kaplan. After all, they’ve already started crunching the numbers, and the results aren’t pretty.

  • furrowtickler
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2004
    • 22236

    #2
    What’s the numbers for Quebec separatists?

    Comment

    • goalieguy847
      Senior Member
      • Jun 2017
      • 698

      #3
      Shhhhhhh. Separatists dont want to hear this...

      Mitch sylvestre will just say " those are hogwash..itll be 10 billion at most"
      meanwhile...rath has approached the us government for a 500 billion line of credit.....so yeah. They know itll be half a trillion.


      And quebec did not go well. Neither did brexit.

      Its flabbergasting at what the separatists actually believe..or are being fed in regards to costs.
      also... the stuff that they come up with ..

      " oh just charge fees on everything going thru the province. "

      - ok.but then every province does that to us.

      " just send more pipelines thru the USA"
      - ok, but we already sell to the usa at a discount.. and you can be damn certain that it would ve discounted further....because, you know, theyre gonna protect us and all.


      Its amazing.

      Comment

      • shtferbrains
        Senior Member
        • Jun 2017
        • 5302

        #4
        People have forgotten that when all the head offices moved out of Quebec that was due to the french only policy they enforced at the time.
        I happened to be visiting there at the time staying with a family. He worked in CIL head office when they were preparing to move to the GTA.
        Topic of most conversations.
        It was another world.
        Extremely unfriendly to non French.

        Comment

        • ajl
          Senior Member
          • May 2008
          • 3266

          #5
          This is a big pile of BS but sadly even premier Smith has repeated it. Yes there are costs and some disruption during the transition. However, the savings from not propping up the rest of shitholistan will be amazing. Need to get that message out there. Shitholistan needs Alberta, Alberta does not need shitholistan.

          Comment

          • sumdumguy
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2007
            • 12046

            #6
            The time has come to put the numbers onto paper. The unbelievers in separation are having a heyday right now. They need to get a sock stuffed between their mandibles.

            Comment

            • chuckChuck
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2006
              • 13083

              #7
              Yup some dumb guy and the rest of the wanna be republican MAGA types and chronic complainers want to shut the economic discussion down! Par for the course.

              It's highly undemocratic to suggest that only the leave side gets to promote their absurd wacky claims and every body else has to get a sock!

              The dimwits have no credibility in suggesting Alberta would be the richest country on earth! LOL

              But we know that many of the MAGA leavers are undemocratic and unethical and will use illegal methods like stealing and illegally using the voters list.



              "But now Mr. Kaplan has provided to The Globe and Mail his own preliminary calculations that show separation would be an economic disaster. His analysis indicates independence would reduce the Alberta economy – or nominal GDP – by $39.1-billion or 7.2 per cent in the first full year as an independent country, leading to a 4.8-per-cent contraction in Albertans’ household disposable income.
              Other highlights of his research: Total employment in the province would fall by 45,703 jobs in year one of independence; personal income per person would fall by 6.2 per cent; retail sales would fall by 8.2 per cent; housing starts would fall by 10.5 per cent; residential investment would fall by 14.5 per cent, while nominal business investment would decline by 8 per cent. In his analysis, Mr. Kaplan points to at least a dozen economic metrics that are all negative if separation is pursued.
              University of Calgary economist Trevor Tombe has also done some preliminary forecasting. He estimated there would be a 5-per-cent increase in the cost of importing to, or exporting from, Alberta, which would shrink the province’s economy by roughly 4 per cent in 2026, a year he used for illustrative purposes."

              Comment

              • goalieguy847
                Senior Member
                • Jun 2017
                • 698

                #8
                Yeah. It is time to put the number on paper.
                almost like economists ( such as trevor tombe) have been doing.
                Its so weird that when the numbers come up that dont paint separating in a favourablr light... everyone and their dog bashes the messenger.
                " oh that trevor tombe hes such a libtard"

                " oh danielle smith is so full of crap and shes just repeating the libtard media state mind control legacy numbers"


                Rinse. Repeat.

                If the numbers are so out to lunch..

                Then why.

                Oh why oh why oh why...
                Did Rath meet with U.S. officials to discuss a 500 billion $ line of credit from the US?

                I mean....surely * rollls eyes* the leader of the separatist movement would know that they would only need a mere 7 to 10 billion to pay for transition costs...
                And NOT the 500 billion they went and asked for ...

                Why would they ask for .. 490 billion ( with a b) MORE than mitch sylvestre said it would cost?

                This makes no sense! I am completely flabbergasted!

                Surely this must just be an honest to goodness calculation error!!!

                I just dont understand the discrepancy!

                Ohhhhhhhhhhh the humanity!!!!!!

                Comment

                • chuckChuck
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2006
                  • 13083

                  #9
                  The MAGA separatists have no credibility yet the wanna be republicans keep believing their crap!

                  Even Danny Smith can do the math and its not good!

                  Brexit is a good example of what happens when you exit a long standing trade relationship.

                  Brexit has significantly dragged on the UK economy, with studies indicating a long-term reduction in GDP of roughly 6% to 8%. The withdrawal from the EU single market has depressed business investment, disrupted trade with costly red tape, and dulled the competitiveness of the UK's vital services and goods sectors.

                  Comment

                  • Hamloc
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2014
                    • 3995

                    #10
                    Originally posted by goalieguy847 View Post
                    Shhhhhhh. Separatists dont want to hear this...

                    Mitch sylvestre will just say " those are hogwash..itll be 10 billion at most"
                    meanwhile...rath has approached the us government for a 500 billion line of credit.....so yeah. They know itll be half a trillion.


                    And quebec did not go well. Neither did brexit.

                    Its flabbergasting at what the separatists actually believe..or are being fed in regards to costs.
                    also... the stuff that they come up with ..

                    " oh just charge fees on everything going thru the province. "

                    - ok.but then every province does that to us.

                    " just send more pipelines thru the USA"
                    - ok, but we already sell to the usa at a discount.. and you can be damn certain that it would ve discounted further....because, you know, theyre gonna protect us and all.


                    Its amazing.
                    I think what is amazing is the support for the MOU for another mythical pipeline to the B.C. Coast. It will never happen. Too many Indigenous groups and Left Coasters standing in the way. Besides the costs of the increased carbon tax, the Carbon Contracts of Difference and the large CCS project far outweigh the benefits.

                    As for the costs of separation, I think anyone who actually thinks about it will realize there is a lot of new infrastructure and new government departments required to run a country that are not required for a province. One has to weigh whether getting out from under a National government that is dictated by one province, that being Quebec, is worth the effort and expense for your children's and grandchildren’s future. Personally I think there are far too many recent immigrants in the large cities that will vote to stay for the separation side to win.

                    Comment

                    • Reply to this Thread
                    • Return to Topic List
                    Working...