When is our land, not our land?

[farmers_son]

farmers_son I don't know if you have had dealings with the NRCB or not. I know a bit about their process and it is true they are created by government but they must act in an arms length manner. Any government official attempting to influence the decisions of these Boards could find it to be a career limiting move. Administrative tribunals are the next form of justice to the courts and are bound by the rules of Natural Justice which means fairness.

It is obvious that there are going to be those who applaud decisions made by these tribunals and those that are very unhappy with them. Quasi Judicial Boards such as these usually have a very difintative line between their operations and the Board side of their organizations to ensure that Board members are not involved in the decision making of the operations staff, and are only engaged in making decisions that are the result of appeal hearings.

The Administrative Tribunal is similar to the Subdivision and Development Appeal Boards within the municipal system in that the tribunal may amend or vary decisions made by the lower authority.

[farmers_son]

in addition to my previous post I do want to add that it is mandatory for all Board members of these tribunals to disclose annually to the Ethics Commissioner, all their financial and business dealings, including those of their spouse and children.They cannot hold stock in any operation that is remotely connected with their mandate. There are many stakeholders for these Boards including Municpalities, Health Regions, Non Government Organizations and the industries affected by their regulatory role. To quote a recent article, it is all about balanced decision making in the public interest.

[cowman]

Well emerald I will relate a true story told to me by a mid size feedlot owner. He wanted to expand and jumped through all the NRCB hoops. Part of the problem was he needed a certain land base to spread manure on? The NRCB insisted he use all his land base...he had some remote very rough pasture land!
Anyway he played the game but never put the manure on the remote pastures but instead put it on the better land and grew corn for silage! He told me they never check anything and are basically just a joke that you have to deal with! He said they don't have a clue when it comes to the economics of a situation! He was pretty contemptious of the NRCB.

[farmers_son]

Government exerts influence over these boards by controlling who are the board members. I cannot believe that the Province would sit back and watch the EUB make orders and decisions contrary to Governments wishes. The people who get chosen for these jobs may have expertise in their fields but they would also be regarded as supporting the general directions and policies of the governing body or they would not get the job or they would quickly be replaced.

[farmers_son]

I am not sure about how EUB members are selected, however the NRCB Board is relatively new, having been appointed in 2002. I was involved on the municipal side of things with respect to the AOPA legislation and know how the process evolved for appointing Board members. The current Board were selected from a fairly large group of folks and my understanding is that some of the current board had numerous letters of recommendation from folks from all walks of life across the province, attesting to their standing in the community, their honesty and their ability to think for themselves. If you check the NRCB website you can read the biographies of the Board members and what their backgrounds are. I do think it is a bit unfair to surmise that these folks will jump through government hoops, if you read some of the decisions made by the Board you will see that they have denied applications that would likely have been a feather in the hat of government. I am thinking of the Glacier Power application for one.

There are Board decisions where the Board has overturned approvals done by field staff when they felt that there was inadequate information regarding certain issues, so I don't know how that relates to doing governments bidding. I would think that the members of both the EUB and NRCB Boards have proven track records of community service and common sense decision making or they wouldn't be there. Doubtful if Cabinet just plucked them off a park bench somewhere.

Cowman, you cited one feedlot owners contempt for the NRCB, and his comments about them not checking to see where he spread manure. He is required to keep records of where he spreads manure, and if he is not spreading it where he says he is, then he is not adhering to the legislation. I have difficulty with his blaming the regulatory body if he as an operator thumbs his nose at the regs.
Almost like somebody speeding and making fun of the cop because they didn't catch them. Doesn't exhibit much between the ears thats for sure !!
Industry has a whole has had an issue with the NRCB doing routine monitoring of operations, which is what they are supposed to do, so if you have one feedlot owner complaining because they don't check up on him, and the rest of industry whining because they are checking up on them, how in hell is any regulatory body supposed to please everybody. Municipalities want the NRCB to ensure that all operations adhere to the conditions of their permits in order to have as little conflict as possible with their neighbours.
I have been told that the NRCB does not send inspectors out to lurk behind every bush spying on operators, they respond to complaints; monitor existing conditions and also check on NRCB permits to ensure that they are in compliance.

[cowman]

Emerald: Records are such an easy thing. Even official records? You take a soil sample from a different field...come on you must know these things happen?
The feedlot owner isn't an idiot. He knows that the "NRCB" boys aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer and aren't likey to do anything because even they realize their "regulations" are basically BS? Corn can suck up one hell of a lot of nutrients and still stay standing! I would defy anyone to tell me which field of corn silage has had more than the official requirements?
Oh and by the way the corn was simply outstanding!

[cowman]

I would imagine that the feedlot operator was advised that he must include all available manure spreading lands in order to meet the requirements of AOPA, for the size of operation he was applying for. He may be required to provide soil tests to the NRCB at some future date depending on whether or not he is required to have a nutrient management plan . Its all on the honor system isn't it ? If you decide to falsify records and get away with it then do you tell people that the regulator is an idiot ???

It is unfortunate if there are folks in industry that don't want to play by the rules with regard to manure spreading. The main reason for identifying spreading lands is to ensure that lands are not overloaded with nitrogen which may pose a risk to the environment should it run off. When the AOPA legislation was being developed there was a large consultation process across the province. Municipalities, health regions, industry, government and the general public had opportunity for input. I would suggest that if an operator does not want to use specific lands for spreading then they can change lands without notifying the NRCB but they must have adequate lands on which to spead the manure without overloading.

[cowman]

Well emerald he sure has sufficient land...about 10,000 acres! His point was it was uneconomical to spread it on that land and totally unecessary? This may surprize you but some of these guys know a wee bit more about their own land than all the little "experts" and government officials?
Like I said it was one hell of a corn crop!

[farmers_son]

Emrald1: I checked out both the EUB and NRCB websites. In both cases the mission of these agencies is carry out their responsibilities in the "public interest". I think it is fair to say that the "public interest" and the government’s interest is one and the same.

While I am certainly not inferring unethical conduct on the part of any board members I stand by my comments that these boards reflect the government's positions and policies and if by chance decisions were being made that were contrary to the governments interest then changes would be quickly made. The boards should not be considered to be independent of government rather a reflection of government policies and a policy arm of the respective ministry.

Quote “The Alberta Energy and Utilities Board (EUB) is an independent, quasi-judicial agency of the Government of Alberta. Our mission is to ensure that the discovery, development, and delivery of Alberta's energy resources and utilities services take place in a manner that is fair, responsible, and in the public interest.”

[farmers_son]

farmers_son I remind you that the EUB is partially funded by the oil and gas industry. The livestock and non energy natural resource sectir dos not fund the NRCB. The livestock industry has been quoted as saying that the NRCB is there to ensure that there is growth in that sector but if you listen to municipalities you will hear that they want the NRCB to ensure that any growth of the livestock sector is not at the expense of the quality of life or the health of Albertans.

The NRCB was appointed as the administrator of the AOPA legislation after there were several applications for huge hog operations received by several municipalities . ( Flagstaff and Forty Mile counties ). These municipalities were faced with huge public outcrys against these operations and were caught in a real mess, they had a lack of technical expertise on staff to deal with this sort of applications and were faced with spending vast sums of money during the application and public consultation process. Many municipalities literally begged the province to take over citing of these operations to take the heat off the local municipalities. I was in attendance at the Alberta Association of Municipalites and Counties convention and heard first hand former Minister Shirley being requested to act as rapidly as possible to have legislation in effect that ensured a consistent set of regulations across the province vs having 68 different sets of rules for the expansion of the livestock industry.

In order to have an unbaised, open process to deal with applications and enforcement of this legislation it was obvious that one agency would have to be responsible, and it could not be AAFRD as they were the gatekeepers of the legislation and certainly could not be considered as being at arms length.

The NRCB was created by Premier Klein in 1991 to deal with applications for non energy natural resource projects such as the Westcastle Resort project near Pincher Creek, the Three Sisters project near Canmore, the Highwood Little Bow water diversion project near Vulcan, and several other associated projects such as limestone quarries etc. The government felt that since the Board was already in place they could adequately deal with the expansion of the livestock industry by adding knowlegeable staff and permanent Board members with a track record of community service and knowledge of not only the livestock industry but backgrounds in environmental sciences etc.
NRCB Staff include a number of Professional Agricultural Engineers whose duty is to either approve or deny applications for new and expanding confined feeding operations based on the effect on the community, the environment, the economy and the appropriate use of land.
The NRCB has qualified individuals in place to ensure compliance of operations both existing and newly approved. Former RCMP officers, former inspectors with Alberta Environment etc.
In addition the NRCB has two hydrogeologists, several soil scientists and environmental scientists on staff to work with the approval staff to ensure that applications meet environmental standards and further to monitor testing results from monitoring wells around lagoons etc. to ensure that aquifers are protected from possible leaking of ecoli etc.

My interest in this stems from my concerns as an elected official during my terms as a county councillor when the legislation was being developed. I personally presented a paper to the original committee that was engaged in the public consultation process prior to the AOPA legislation being enacted. I wanted to be comfortable in my own mind that the safety and quality of life of my own ratepayers was not going to be compromised by a RUBBER STAMPING of applications that came before whatever agency that would be responsible for reviewing and approving applications for expansion of the livestock industry.
I know some of the NRCB Board members and they do not have a past history of being anybody's yes man, so I doubt if they have compromised their integrity since their appointment to the NRCB. They, nor members of other Boards such as the EUB are not allowed to carry memberships in any political party, work for or raise money for any party. If you feel that Board members of regulatory boards are in the pocket of government how do you feel about provincial court judges ? They too are appointed by government. Who would you feel should be responsible for regulating the oil and gas sector and other industries if not boards such as the above ?