Has anyone tried subsoiling ?

[Terawet]

Thanks for all the responses guys, last year we had very little frost, but with subsoiling I was thinking it might address the compaction from the hundreds of inches of rain we've had starting back in 2010. Every operation across the land seems to leave it's mark, from drill tank, to sprayer, to trucks. Bringing up stone or rock wouldn't be preferred, it might not be just the ones you pull up, but ripping might make others lower down , move up easier in later years. Salinity, which wasn't much of a problem before all this rain over the last 8 yrs., has certainly shown up now, wouldn't want to do anything to cause those spots to spread or grow, total loss of inputs. A few around here had tried the radish plant, seems the results have been unremarkable, maybe cause it just keeps raining.
Thinking now, I might try just some deep tilling 5-6", with 2" spikes, then heavy harrow after. Likely bring up some extra surface rock, but it wouldn't bother rock lower down. Try something anyway, see what results I get.

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[AlbertaFarmer5]

I was actually directing that at Boarderbloke but seriously AF5 what are your OM levels ? around 3%.
If shortage of OM is the problem I don't see how hauling a ripper around will help.
Organic matter on my place here is interesting- best quarter was the last cleared from bush (mid 1980s) which is still 7.5%. Stuff that was farmed and hayed alternately is @6%. The "best" quarter (the easiest to farm) is 3.4% because its been farmed continuously. We have real soil issues with it - turns to concrete when it dries out, pools water when its wet. Needs organic matter desperately - we will be grazing corn on it this winter also growing and lightly grazing/largely trampling big crops of sweet clover. I don't think you need mechanical solutions to build OM.

I see the same thing, first cleared land was the first to lose production, Stuff I've broke in recent years is miraculously productive. And I intend to keep it that way, intend to leave a better legacy for the next generations than the previous left us. Can see exactly how old a piece of ground is, by the production on an extreme wet or dry year.

Mechanical solutions is what got us into this problem, will not get us out.

No till, hauling manure from every possible source, returning all straw, quit removing hay perpetually. Keep something growing year around. Hauling peat moss from the swamps. Growing crops with lots of straw, and ground cover. And it is working, even faster and better than I could have hoped.

[grassfarmer]

I was actually directing that at Boarderbloke but seriously AF5 what are your OM levels ? around 3%.
If shortage of OM is the problem I don't see how hauling a ripper around will help.
Organic matter on my place here is interesting- best quarter was the last cleared from bush (mid 1980s) which is still 7.5%. Stuff that was farmed and hayed alternately is @6%. The "best" quarter (the easiest to farm) is 3.4% because its been farmed continuously. We have real soil issues with it - turns to concrete when it dries out, pools water when its wet. Needs organic matter desperately - we will be grazing corn on it this winter also growing and lightly grazing/largely trampling big crops of sweet clover. I don't think you need mechanical solutions to build OM.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

What is the % OM matter of the land you have problems with?

OM is about negative 5 %. Give or take 5 %...

And this is the long term solution. Mechanical ripping is a desperate last hope attempt. I've been doing everything possible to increase OM instead. And that makes sense drastic difference that lasts. But will take a lifetime to undo th decades of destruction.

[grassfarmer]

What is the % OM matter of the land you have problems with?

[boarderbloke]

Thanks for all the responses guys, last year we had very little frost, but with subsoiling I was thinking it might address the compaction from the hundreds of inches of rain we've had starting back in 2010. Every operation across the land seems to leave it's mark, from drill tank, to sprayer, to trucks. Bringing up stone or rock wouldn't be preferred, it might not be just the ones you pull up, but ripping might make others lower down , move up easier in later years. Salinity, which wasn't much of a problem before all this rain over the last 8 yrs., has certainly shown up now, wouldn't want to do anything to cause those spots to spread or grow, total loss of inputs. A few around here had tried the radish plant, seems the results have been unremarkable, maybe cause it just keeps raining.
Thinking now, I might try just some deep tilling 5-6", with 2" spikes, then heavy harrow after. Likely bring up some extra surface rock, but it wouldn't bother rock lower down. Try something anyway, see what results I get.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

For the cost of an airplane application, plus the seed, I can burn a lot of fuel subsoiling. I realize there are many other benefits to tillage radish though.

[grassfarmer]

Something like this to follow sprayer tracks? This was Kevin Elmy's picture in SK. Herd electric powered spinners.


Or get it flown on - they do it in the US over corn.

[bucket]

You could spread radish mid season ...early July if the spreader could follow sprayer tracks.

They would be in great shape by this time and working hard to sub soil.

I had limited success with radish in 2015 due to a dry spell but could see the benefit in areas they actually grew.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

I've been experimenting with subsoiling. 5 shank V 3pt converted to pull type. I go up to 2 feet deep. This is on grey wooded soil which compacts like concrete and does not let water or roots in. This will be my fourth year. Don't have any concrete yield data to say that it pays, but anecdotally, I've seen enough to keep experimenting.
Not doing the entire farm, just the areas that hold water on the surface indefinitely, are usually short on fibre and compact terribly. Trying to get the sidehills to not have standing water for weeks after a rain....Expectation is to repeat in perhaps 5 year intervals, hopefully even less often if I can avoid compacting in the first place. Trying to rip in such a direction that it can leave channels for the water to flow down hill, as all of these areas have natural slope, but still drown out the crop. Acres I did in fall of 2014, very dry, good conditions for shattering, were obvious all summer, I could see the straight line diagonally across the quarter where I started, with the barley crop so much heavier on the ripped side that it lodged right up to the line, and only much later on the other side. This year being so dry, I couldn't see a visible difference in crop on three different soil types that I tried, but I also lost a lot of moisture in the subsoiled ground vs the rest of the direct seeded ground, as the gashes were open for months after the snow melted so early, so that likely cancelled out any benefit I might have realized by allowing roots and water to penetrate deeper.

Fall of 14, I also managed to rip the subsoiler in two, to give you an idea how hard this ground is. This was on crop land where I had fed cattle the winter and spring before. Came up in basketball sized chunks, 5 shanks could spin out or stall 400 HP with 8 Michelins.

Farmer I bought it from was also local, he said he had discovered that Alfalfa roots did a better job cheaper, which I can easily agree with, except the areas I'm doing have no hope of growing alfalfa in their state. If they would grow Alflafla, I wouldn't need to rip, a viscous circle. I'd like to try tillage radish, but it would mean losing an entire crop year, as we already use the entire snow free period to seed, grow and harvest a crop. Still worth an experiment.

Frost does an excellent job on the top soil, especially in the spring freezing and thawing saturated soil daily, but in my opinion is not very effective below that. For the past 3 winters, we've barely had any frost anyways, and only a few inches deep.

Not many rocks here to worry about, but did find a patch of underground mountains last fall, big enough to trip 3 or 4 of the shanks at once.

The grey wooded research farm at Breton started a trial with subsoiling a long time ago, I've spoken to the professors involved who thought it was going to do great things, but the experiment lost funding and was never completed.

I also thought it would work for ripping tree roots, as I can easily lose 50 feet of crop on every side of a tree. But the roots tend to twist the shanks and generally wreck things. I now use the track hoe ripper for that job, wow what a difference it made this year with no rain for months.

It's been a cheap experiment, didn't pay much for it, and a few dollars an acre in fuel.

Also tried some heavy gumbo pastures this June while it was so dry, this is soil that doesn't grow anything in pasture it gets so hard, but rip it up and it will grow 100 times more grass. Can't see any improvement so far.

I'd like to dig a test pit in some of these depression (ones that are at high enough elevation that they should drain subsurface by gravity, but dont) which hold water for ever, and see if there is a depth at which it would drain, or if they only recharge from ground water. Maybe extremely deep ripping these would help, but not sure how deep would be required. I have a lot of unanswered questions about the hydrogeology of this ground.