Does wheat have a place in the bio fuels market

[craig]

wd9. While you ask a simple common sense question, I would suggest that there are more things at play that have a bigger influence on the bio fuels market than energy balance. A simple anology would be does it make sense to use high energy inputs to produce a crop, load it on trains and boats ship it half way around the world and then basically give it away in third world countries. There is no doubt that wheat cannot compete with sugarcane and corn on an energy basis however Western Canada is limited in the crop options currently available to service this market. Whether we think it is morally right or not governments have jumped on the band wagon to produce a new market for some of our production. What we need to be able to do is chart a course of research and development to service this market.

[wd9]

If it is a simple common sense question, it should be easy to answer.

[jensend]

and the fact that the simple answer is being avoided is an answer in itself. if the objective is to produce energy in a form to replace fossil energy wheat isn't the answer because it seems nobody wants to address the issue of energy balance. has anybody ever stepped up and said more fuel will go into cars because of this than if we just draw the oil straight out of the ground, refine it and put it in the tank?

[craig]

In reply to the above threads. I do not not know the answer. If I was investing in a ethanol plant I might feel compelled to know the answer. My question back to you is if wheat or any of our other alternatives are not viable then is Canada just prepared to move to the sidelines. By your statements you imply the world is run on common sense. Are farm subsudies, food safety and environmental issues all run on common sense.

[jensend]

so a bunch of stupid decisions justify another supid decision? if the energy balance is negative we're wasting both fossil energy and foodgrain. the crop then is wasting all the solar energy it absorbs and we're throwing that away too. sounding more like it will receive govt. support? seems like the perfect target of govt. money.

[wd9]

Well see Craig, that is the issue, if you were investing, you would know. A business built on government policy that can change on a whim and that has no hope of paying for itself without government has what value? So your original question, does wheat have a place in the bio fuels market, I would say no. Ethanol provides little to no benefit when compared to HC exhaust after the catalytic converter. That and the fact you now have water based polution that enters the ground water as opposed to HC pollution which stays up in the sky is what? Better?

[craig]

Jensend, WD9 you seem quite prepared to argue the logic of using wheat for bio fuel but in turn imply that growing crops for food and selling at below the cost of production makes logical sense. The American's have already found that subsidizing bio fuels greatly reduces the amount of total farm support payments. If someone is prepared to build a plant and buy my crop as a source of energy and is willing to pay more than the present customers it helps improve my bottom line. Who knows with new technology it might even provide that net energy you are looking for.

[cottonpicken]

My two cents is that no wheat does not have the energy payback but....its strategic in the military sence of global politics.North America is energy hungry,with grain to burn.

[jensend]

craig: Jensend, WD9 you seem quite prepared to argue the logic of using wheat for bio fuel but in turn imply that growing crops for food and selling at below the cost of production makes logical sense

that's not the point. i thought we were talking about whether or not it made sense to convert wheat to a fossil fuel substitute. the energy balance is the issue. if wheat is an inefficient energy source and economically inefficient as a food then perhaps you should find another crop or another way of marketing your wheat. since when is it a given that you should be growing a crop that doesn't have a use that pays you back? you have to realize that as long as you grow grain that will to a large extent find its end use in a poor country you likely won't get rich off it. that still doesn't justify using it in another inefficient way.

[wd9]

Jensend, I agree, and then the question comes around back to craig. Do the new proposed wheat varieties of high sugar make energy balance positive? If so, what is it. Or do we just burn a bunch of extra hydrocarbons keeping people busy and then reduce the already pathetic Cdn farm subsidies for a select few involved in renewable energy?

(Probably not what you thought you were asking craig, but is fundamental to solid business and use of natural resources)