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Diesel Exhaust Fluid

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  • farmaholic
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2010
    • 17482

    Diesel Exhaust Fluid

    The EPA is trying to make DEF more user friendly for truckers and farmers by extending the time period before de-rate and shutdown occurs. They're asking engine manufacturers for warranty and failure data related to both those conditions. They're also pushing towards the owner's "right to repair", by allowing owners access to specific tools and software.

    DEF definitely seems to clean up exhaust emissions and pollution but it shouldn't be at a cost to owners that makes them want to delete the entire system over repairing it. We have very little trouble with it in some equipment. In equipment that doesn't get used in the winter, we drain the DEF tanks to prevent damage to the components inside the tank from the DEF freezing and turning into a block of ice. We had a 3/4 ton truck that encountered the same problem twice(once on warranty and once off), needless to say the DEF system WAS deleted, now it's a stinky diesel. In my opinion, the EPA needs to address the COST OF REPAIRS to keep people from WANTING TO DELETE the system entirely. Freezing temperatures are not friendly to DEF systems. Why hasn't there been a DEF developed that won't freeze?

    Developing a DEF that wouldn't freeze, allowing owners access to software and diagnostic tools, extending de-rate and complete shutdown times, and REDUCING THE COST of repairs would go a long way to improving the DEF emissions and pollution system's reputation and the publics acceptance of the technology.
  • farmaholic
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2010
    • 17482

    #2
    Are emergency vehicles like ambulances, law enforcement and fire trucks exempt?

    Comment

    • redleaf
      Senior Member
      • Feb 2008
      • 381

      #3
      Originally posted by farmaholic View Post
      Are emergency vehicles like ambulances, law enforcement and fire trucks exempt?
      Not sure about that but as I understand it military equipment and vehicles are exempt.

      Comment

      • Old Cowzilla
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2020
        • 1582

        #4
        It worked until you get 3 or more mornings of -25 then system shutdown. Then $500 service call to try to get things going and maybe 2nd trip by service to find laptop that would talk to tractor . Meanwhile cows still hungry and chores not done yet and at that point I didn't seem to care about environment . Newer tractor burned less fuel than one that it replaced to begin with but having service truck on road all day fixing def problems in tractors kinda defeated purpose.

        Comment

        • Grain Farmer
          Senior Member
          • Mar 2025
          • 649

          #5
          Anything that runs in winter delete it.

          Comment

          • bucket
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2008
            • 17030

            #6
            How productive is equipment parked waiting for a service truck? Equipment manufacturers don't put that in their ads about productivity.

            Comment

            • Templeboy
              Member
              • Apr 2019
              • 55

              #7
              Originally posted by Grain Farmer View Post
              Anything that runs in winter delete it.
              or idles a lot. Loading semis in the cold, is no good. some days a truck runs all day without leaving the yard. 8 hours of slobbering cold exhaust into a DPF. Similar to a chore tractor

              Comment

              • blackpowder
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2010
                • 9311

                #8
                It always felt like something pushed out before it was made reliable just to meet a standard. Which cost all industries huge.
                It has to work. Often it was just a big expense. Unless it was summer only, full load.
                Last time I drained a tank it cost $200 to shut off a code lol.
                Can you imagine all the repair dollars spent in NA since inception? Total loss to the economy. Broke many a trucker. Junk tech. Not to mention arctic issues.
                Thankfully our southern cousins have a great lobby system and a useful Senate.
                I'm not for pollution or waste. But poor tech is incredibly wasteful.

                Comment

                • Taiga
                  Senior Member
                  • Jul 2018
                  • 1480

                  #9
                  DEF was about Nox, the DPF is about the particulates

                  Comment

                  • helmsdale
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2014
                    • 2129

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Taiga View Post
                    DEF was about Nox, the DPF is about the particulates
                    Damn it Farma... You actually made me log into this hell site again!

                    Diesel engines exist in a terrible world (according to bureaucrats) where high combustion temps produce NOx and low combustion temps lead to PM<2.5. Both are considered "toxic" in regions (specifically L.A. and anywhere that stagnant air can be long term) that have a considerable number of people. Both of these are primary components of "smog".

                    How does one eliminate or at least decrease NOx? seriously decrease combustion temperatures! Enter Exhaust Gas recirculation. Deprive an engine of the secondary component of combustion (oxygen), or ensure at a minimum that every molecule of oxygen is consumed in combustion and you limit an engines ability to bind with the naturally occurring nitrogen of our atmosphere... What do you get as a result? Choke a diesel engine and it belch's black smoke. Thats what the DPF is supposed to take care of. What are the constituent products of incomplete combustion? YAY, particulates in the form of PM<2.5.

                    How does one eliminate or at least decrease PM<2.5? Burn it HOT! Compounding turbo chargers, stupid high compression ratios, even pre-injections of diesel to pre-heat cylinders to ensure complete combustion of the diesel fuel on the main power stroke. What's the left over component? Excess oxygen! What does that super heated oxygen want to do? It'll bond with whatever it can find, which is nitrogen that naturally exists as the largest single component of our atmosphere! It's treated after the fact to turn NOx back into constituent components N2, H20, and trace amounts of CO2(another evil gas)

                    The two operate in complete opposition to one another. If you want an efficient burn, and peak power, you'll consume more DEF while lessening the load on your DPF. If you want to reduce the load on your DPF, you'll consume more DEF. A diesel engine running in its peak operating band with everything working exactly as spec'd will be efficient with both. How often does everything work exactly as planned by engineers?

                    That said... Dilution is the Solution to Pollution, but only in areas where you are able to dilute the pollution. Us in AG out here in bum phuck nowhere it isnt going to be an issue. Those in populated areas with a slug of diesel engines burning it can be a problem...

                    Comment

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