Marketing Solution to Farm Crisis

[parsley]

Hello Chas,
Let's examine Steve's logic:
This is Steve's statement, "Majority rules in this great democratic country of ours".


The majority of men in Canada at one time said that women could not vote. These men were democratically elected too. They considered that women were not persons, and therefore could not vote. Was the majority right?

I'd be interested in Steve's response. Remind him he might have to look for a hotelroom.
Parsley

[chaffmeister]

A response to Chas and Steve:

Re "pooling and marketing all grain and oilseed through and orderly marketing agency will with out a doubt give you the average price with a premium nearly every time."

Not necessarily - please read my comments in the thread titled "Pricing Versus Marketing".

Re "...the very way they make trades into the future keeps prices historically low."

With all due respect, if the grain companies have so much influence over prices and keep them low, how do you explain the high prices in the early 1970's, 1988, 1994 and 1995/96?

Re "Do you actually think that the open market would average you more for your canola over five a year period than the CWB could get you under a far superior marketing system."

Yes.

Re "Value added is impractical on a farm to farm bases, besides show me over 10% return on investment without risk and I show you corporate America."

The more than 1200 farmers who own Dakota Growers get more than $6.00/bu for their durum after its been turned into pasta - year in, year out. Do you think they agree with you?

Have you ever bought Sun-Kist oranges, or Ocean Spray cranberry juice? Both are owned by the farmers supplying them.

Re: "Remember farming as we know it in the world today was not caused by the policies of the CWB."

Agreed. The CWB is not the enemy. I'm just not convinced that they are the solution.

Re "You are pretty narrow minded if you think an individual Farmer can market his grain worldwide."

I agree. Farmers should not try to market worldwide. They are wiser to pay someone to do it for him. However, the CWB has not yet proven that they are the ones to do it.

Re "...if you think the CWB has to phone every farmer before they can make a sale and market your pooled grain, then you don't have a clue about the competitive world out there."

I'm not sure where the idea of the CWB calling farmers comes from. Did I miss a thread?

Re: "We elect people to run the CWB and elect people to run Government and have to trust that they market our grain and run this country to their best ability. If they screw up we do not elect them for the next term."

Agreed. but how do we know if the CWB has screwed up?

Re "Some of you would like to park the CWB on the shelf and only use it if you get yourself into trouble or need an interest free loan to help put your crop in. No business can operate on that "IF" bases."
Sorry, but I disagree. Every business out there operates on the IF basis. Every successful company out there knows that IF something better comes along, they are out of business.

cm

[chas]

Chaffmeister I like your reasoning because I think you proved one point for me. The North Dakota farmers have proven that if you remove yourself from the open market, price stablity can be accomplished and possibly supplies could be managed also. My thoughts could be changed about the CWB in one way lets put domestic sales of wheat and barley on the open market to create the very thing that is happening in North Dakota. If like industries can be created here to stablize prices for farmers I'am all for it. Lets leave exports to the CWB as we want to keep as much value added here, lets not take it across the border. I think most farmers want dual marketing to include border acrossings which will cause nothing but grieve with American farmers. I believe the Government of Canada has made policy in the past that favour industry being developed in the east on the backs of Western Canadian. Does that sound like a simple democratic solution that could help our industry. Parsley and Tom4cwb how do you like this theory. I hope you can meet me half-way. I'am trying to find a diplomatic solution to our bickering. Chas

[chaffmeister]

Chas: you're right - the guys down in North Dakota have removed themselves from the open market (at least on the portion of their crop tied to their investment in the pasta plant). The flax grower I mentioned a while back did the same thing.

Now that we may see eye to eye on this, the next problem you and I need to solve is how do we get the CWB to give up the domestic market?

And one more thing that we may never solve. How do we determine if the CWB is really doing the job we need them to? you see, I'm still not convinced that they are providing value on exports.

cm

[parsley]

Don't pressure too hard Chas! You're such a likeable cuss, I'm glad I'm not living too close to you or I'd maybe talk you into letting me buy your foundered horse at midnight over that dandelion wine. What about some trial runs? Would this mean you'd be game to let the local pasta boys have a go at it for awhile? No going through the Board?
parsley

[ianben]

Hi Chaffmeister
Nice to hear a young farmers view. Congrats on the new baby, children truly are a gift and can bring such joy.
Just a couple of points really
Futures are necessary today and yes can be used to our advantage if we know, as I am sure you do, how to use them.
They exist however as the best solution YET to cure OUR marketing problem.
I maintain we have a problem with manageing supply and demand and it is OUR problem, No one else can fix it for us. Governments CWB grain traders have all tried and failed.

We must help ourselves!!!

We are a bit like an alcoholic, just an example I don't mean to cause offence, who thinks the barman is his friend if we think any of the above can solve our problem.
Like the alcoholic we need to see the real problem and get HELP.A marketing AA,

Now about that flax farmer.
Is he still a farmer or a flax bar maker with a hobby farm.
I have no problem with hobby farmers so long as we recognise them.
At the moment I am a hobby farmer myself.
A bit more about ianben
First we added value to our grain by rearing beef got to 400 bulls/yr calf to slaughter. Then in 96 came BSE, no customers, no business. Watch-out GM!!!

We saw a little nitche, for small bale hay and straw for riding ponies, all those people must be good for something, they are a pain in the butt when we want to move the combine.
Now straw makes up to £90/tonne and wheat is just £72/tonne.
So have I added value or am I a hay and straw dealer?
I think that I am a hay and straw dealer because that is were I make a profit. The farm is actually a liability because we try to sell what we produce and sometimes our quality is not good enough, we will never control the weather. So now we have 30 cattle again, as a waste diposal for the bad bales, not because I think they will make money.
This is my point about all this adding value IF it works it works better without the farm so why bother to farm.
If those guys in Dakota get bad weather and their wheat won't make pasta what then.
Now cm its 15yrs on. What do you advise your son to do
Does he run the business which requires a pick-up and a mobile phone AND has a regular income.
Or borrow loads of money and farm.
Re rats
I don,t see a gap in the rat bait market at the moment, perhaps after I return from my holidays in Alberta I'll reconsider. How many rats did that guy say we could fit in a suitcase darling.
Still can't believe there are no rats in Alberta. My daughter wants to MOVE.
Regards Ian

[parsley]

A few interesting qoutes in the Royal Bank's Agriculture Business Review, November/98 is from a study for the CFBMC called 'Change and Management and the Human Factor in Agriculture'.

1. It found "perception is the dominant factor among farm managers prompting them to action or inaction".

2. "Power from within, in other words, will determine a farmer's ability to manage change from without".

3. The respondent's ability to act was closely linked to his belief in his ability to control his destiny"

4. "...help farmers channel change and stress by " re-framing" their perceptions to focus onthose areas of their business where they have some control".

Does that add any insight about our individual views?
Parsley

[Steve]

Hi!!! Steve the retired farmer and I would like to participate in your discussoins because I still am a farmer at heart. My comments are only that, not saying other peoples ideas are wrong or right. I am on my own computer now and can put my two cents in without bugging Chas.

Parsley
I did not say the majority is always right, but always rules in the democratic country. Most people are like sheep and a good leader can convince them to fallow regardless of wrong or right. That is the way majorities are formed. Later they may realize that was not what they wanted so they vote that person out and elect a new leader.
That is the way the women over ruled the men by gething together and convincing the men to fallow.

Chaffmeister
Re-How do we know if the CWB screwed up. Very simple, if you think they did not market you wheat and barley the way you want then they screwed up.
Re-CWB phoning farmers. Just a expression by interpreting some comments made by individuals on this topic,that CWB should have not done this or that because it was not in the best interest for farmers. Also did not disclose the pooling and pricing of grains. You should keep in mind that the CWB is a none profit organization and there is no advantage for the elected or appointed members to cheat the farmers. I am sure the CWB has to make decisions and at a later date realize they were wrong, but all of us are working with hindsight when we comment on their errors. We are all smart on hindsight.
Re-CWB parked on the shelf and can not work with an " F' as all the corporations do. We have to look at the CWB in a bigger picture. The board not only markets our wheat and some barley for export, also tries to be fair to big and small farmers across our great country. Yes we have the East, the West also the greedy,the needy and the unfortunate, which puts the CWB in a different category than the corporations that only look after their interests.
We can change the action of the CWB by attending all their meetings and voicing our needs. If that doesn't work, we can get some of you to become leaders in a farm organization and all of us will fallow and as said before majority rules. I think we as farmers have one big problem to accomplish this,talk a lot, do nothing about it and our pride over rides common sense.

[Steve]

On the above message fallow should read follow sorry my typing finger and brain were not matched up.

[chaffmeister]

Steve, I am afraid that you are more trusting than I. Concerning the CWB you say "if you think they did not market you wheat and barley the way you want then they screwed up".

You see, in my view that's the whole problem. Assuming you want the CWB to get the highest prices on the most amount of wheat (maximizing your return as a farmer), there is no way you can tell if they are. If I have someone working for me I need some way of checking to see if they are really do the job. Only then can I dismiss them if they aren't.

Now let's assume that policies change and there is some way to monitor and guage the CWB's marketing success. If it's determined that they screwed up, then what? Do we replace the CWB traders? The senior staff? The directors?

This may seem a little pointed toward the CWB and not the topic (Marketing Solution to Farm Crisis). But I think it is very relevant. Until we can get past whether or not the CWB is the solution to marketing problems as some might suggest, the CWB and it's ability to extract the best return for farmers will remain a hot topic.

We need to come out of the dark. The CWB needs to be open about its marketing successes. It's nice to know the CWB is doing a great job in market development, what a great job in varietal development they ar doing, what a great job they are doing at educating customers on the finer points of milling Canadian wheat, or what a great job they are doing taking on the nasty railroads. But the one thing we really need to know, they aren't telling us - we need to know if they are doing the job at hand - making as much money for western Canadian farmers as possible!

A point to ponder - the CWB could quite successfully achieve all the "extras" it says it is doing as mentioned above WITHOUT being a marketing agency.

I'm not necessarily anti-CWB - I just don't see any evidence that it is doing the job we need done. Would be nice to get thalpenny's thoughts.

cm