Gabe Brown

[Blaithin]

Four biggest reasons people say they won’t/can’t try similar methods.

1. The diversity uses up the fertilizer they applied.

2. The diversity uses up what little moisture there is.

3. Don’t have livestock/fencing/water.

4. Can’t afford the time it takes for production to even back out due to debt/payments.


Biggest, biggest hurdle, switch in mentality.

Remember Grassfarmer, break down his name.

Grass.

Farmer.

If you farm the grass, everything else becomes a tool, especially the livestock. But generally the grass is seen as a tool to get the product, not the product of the tool.

Same switch needs to be made for soil. The soil shouldn’t be the tool, the soil should be the product. Try and think that way for 5 minutes and it’s both discouraging and slightly terrifying, but if you can start to get it to work that way, theoretically your “inputs” should start to drop.

If only it happened in a year, not 10.

[jamesb]

This is a great discussion. As a former mixed farmer up until not that many years ago, I can see what the thinking is on one hand but on the other hand profitability can be a real issue. These days if there is a desire to grow the farms acres, generating cash flow to make payments is job 1. Farming with a wholistic frame of mind with using low inputs, manure from cattle, etc can be sustainable but I feel it works best with a established outfit that doesnt have growth in mind. Mixed farms are a great place to trade straw , screenings, and other grains for high value manure. Green feed is a great rotational crop. We didnt have much permanent forage but used lots of millet or green oats. Breaking the rotation with forage is a great management tool. I think for those with no stomach for operating loans or high cash expenses the mixed farm of the type discussed have great merit. That being said, what we found that comparing say what a half section of canola would gross (or net) per acre and the work to grow that canola versus using that acres for feed and spending the winter with a cow / calf operation. I would never fault anyone who picked either way if they could be profitable. I know of nice guys going around speaking touting their "holistic" cattle farming plan that sounded good but if you looked at their actual operation things didnt look like what you expected. Sad thing too in so many cases is that how a lot of these people are seen by the neighbors in their area. Somewhat similar to the bible verse " no prophet is accepted in his hometown" For me if an operation can transition to a successful multigeneration operation then they are on the right path. I see a lot of outfits that do transition but very quickly change the method of operation. There was no buy in by the young generation. I know a pretty good guy that took it pretty hard that his kids didnt farm cause it was his way or the highway.

[Braveheart]

The caveat is that even holistic farmers need to import nutrients. Even if your farm is big enough to have it's own hay and straw, those nutrients are "exported" from the hayfield or grain field to the feeding area (hopefully on the range or pasture). The holistic management course I took promoted buying your hay and straw so you're just importing nutrients from someone else's farm. It's hard to keep a good mineral cycle without some land somewhere being shorted.

My above statements are my own observations and are relevant to farming here is the northern parts. I don't believe there's such a thing as regenerative agriculture.

Re Gabe Brown, is his a sustainable farm? None of us really know because we don't really know his business. I can guarantee if he didn't have the oil patch families that live in Bismarck buying his products he wouldn't have what we think he has going.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

This is a great discussion. As a former mixed farmer up until not that many years ago, I can see what the thinking is on one hand but on the other hand profitability can be a real issue. These days if there is a desire to grow the farms acres, generating cash flow to make payments is job 1. Farming with a wholistic frame of mind with using low inputs, manure from cattle, etc can be sustainable but I feel it works best with a established outfit that doesnt have growth in mind. Mixed farms are a great place to trade straw , screenings, and other grains for high value manure. Green feed is a great rotational crop. We didnt have much permanent forage but used lots of millet or green oats. Breaking the rotation with forage is a great management tool. I think for those with no stomach for operating loans or high cash expenses the mixed farm of the type discussed have great merit. That being said, what we found that comparing say what a half section of canola would gross (or net) per acre and the work to grow that canola versus using that acres for feed and spending the winter with a cow / calf operation. I would never fault anyone who picked either way if they could be profitable. I know of nice guys going around speaking touting their "holistic" cattle farming plan that sounded good but if you looked at their actual operation things didnt look like what you expected. Sad thing too in so many cases is that how a lot of these people are seen by the neighbors in their area. Somewhat similar to the bible verse " no prophet is accepted in his hometown" For me if an operation can transition to a successful multigeneration operation then they are on the right path. I see a lot of outfits that do transition but very quickly change the method of operation. There was no buy in by the young generation. I know a pretty good guy that took it pretty hard that his kids didnt farm cause it was his way or the highway.

Very well said.
You hit the nail on the head with the comments about gross per acre and growth.
If your Grandpa was the last one who had to buy the land in your operation, and you have no inention or need to expand beyond that, then the economics of paying for land at todays prices are irrelevant, and you can do whatever you like.
As a still mixed up farmer, but almost out of cattle now, in recent years, no matter how I run the numbers, there is no way cattle can compare to the net or gross profit per acre ( on acres fit for crops).

I see all of the benefits of mixing livestock and grain, I think that is the direction the industry needs to go to keep our livestock industry profitable. The only silver bullet I have found to make this ground start to produce after decades of neglect is copious amounts of manure. But since I have had to buy all my land, mostly at arms length full market values, there is no way in he** I can pay for it using it for pasture or hay.
But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

[jamesb]

Very well said.
You hit the nail on the head with the comments about gross per acre and growth.
If your Grandpa was the last one who had to buy the land in your operation, and you have no inention or need to expand beyond that, then the economics of paying for land at todays prices are irrelevant, and you can do whatever you like.
As a still mixed up farmer, but almost out of cattle now, in recent years, no matter how I run the numbers, there is no way cattle can compare to the net or gross profit per acre ( on acres fit for crops).

I see all of the benefits of mixing livestock and grain, I think that is the direction the industry needs to go to keep our livestock industry profitable. The only silver bullet I have found to make this ground start to produce after decades of neglect is copious amounts of manure. But since I have had to buy all my land, mostly at arms length full market values, there is no way in he** I can pay for it using it for pasture or hay.
But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

There are quite a few cattle guys buying land in my area but they calving out a hell of a lot of cattle and or have purebred (is is still called that now that so many breeds are intermixed hybrids?) operations. They don't have a lot of cash crop.

[Hamloc]

Very well said.
You hit the nail on the head with the comments about gross per acre and growth.
If your Grandpa was the last one who had to buy the land in your operation, and you have no inention or need to expand beyond that, then the economics of paying for land at todays prices are irrelevant, and you can do whatever you like.
As a still mixed up farmer, but almost out of cattle now, in recent years, no matter how I run the numbers, there is no way cattle can compare to the net or gross profit per acre ( on acres fit for crops).

I see all of the benefits of mixing livestock and grain, I think that is the direction the industry needs to go to keep our livestock industry profitable. The only silver bullet I have found to make this ground start to produce after decades of neglect is copious amounts of manure. But since I have had to buy all my land, mostly at arms length full market values, there is no way in he** I can pay for it using it for pasture or hay.
But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Land in my area is trading for $5000 an acre and up. It doesn’t pencil for crops or cattle, but doing the math crops have a much better chance. Back grounding my calves right now, putting the 6lbs. Per head per day of ground barley just makes me shake my head, simply avoid doing the math lol.

[blackpowder]

Great discussion.
So how do All farms get off the treadmill.
And who is going to buy all that beef?
A huge macro reset maybe.

A Jeffersonian like ag economy may require proximity to urban centers that doesn't apply to the great plains.
Especially N of the 49th.
A solution for all acres hard to visualize. One picture asks what it will look like without base stock for our current N fertilizers. Large territory back to grass the only answer currently.
A futuristic mental work out.

Water will be the first key.
Soil-less food factories will be near the water source and near the urban base.
Eventually I see the buffalo coming back up here.

Nutrient cycle sustainability the other.
Eventually energy in has to equal energy out. New technologies required.

I'm confident it will work out.
And that in 100 years it will look very different. And no one will know who we were.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Great discussion.
So how do All farms get off the treadmill.
And who is going to buy all that beef?
A huge macro reset maybe.

A Jeffersonian like ag economy may require proximity to urban centers that doesn't apply to the great plains.
Especially N of the 49th.
A solution for all acres hard to visualize. One picture asks what it will look like without base stock for our current N fertilizers. Large territory back to grass the only answer currently.
A futuristic mental work out.

Water will be the first key.
Soil-less food factories will be near the water source and near the urban base.
Eventually I see the buffalo coming back up here.

Nutrient cycle sustainability the other.
Eventually energy in has to equal energy out. New technologies required.

I'm confident it will work out.
And that in 100 years it will look very different. And no one will know who we were.

The Buffalo are already back. I had a herd of 100 that stopped over in one of my quarters last winter, in the middle of their stampede across the landscape. Apparently the absentee owners thought cattle fences would be enough to keep them in the muskeg without hay for the winter. As it turns out, they don't even slow down when they go through fences.

As to your questions, I think the only low energy, low input solution is moving the populations to where the food is grown, since the other option obviously cannot be done. And I doubt anyone wants to move from their coastal climate to the northern prairies just so they can claim to be sustainable. Not to mention the energy requirements of living in a cold sparse, climate with such weather extremes, compared to the mild places they will move from.

[blackpowder]

I always enjoy a drive down AB hwy # 41.
From N to S it's a window on what was and always will be. And likely again for a lot more.

The food will always be moved to the population.

[shtferbrains]

How did you get rid of the Buffalo?
I had a similar situation shortly after BSE when buffalo had virtualy no value. They shot them off as they were happy there with lots of feed.
Can't herd buffalo if they don't want to go.