Organic works

[sumdumguy]

I know some people who farmed organically under OCIA. Please note past tense. They said the rules were too stringent. They sold the farm, mostly due to health reasons.

[Jay-mo]

I keep hearing about these successful organic farmers but have yet to see one.....
The blooming Canada thistle sure are pretty though!

[farmaholic]

.....everyone probably has a different definition of "success".

I think the guys around here did it thinking they were going to make a killing growing organic crops by not spending on inputs....most of them wouldn't be what I called "good" farmers to start with.... and I believe you have to be to farm organic. I would bet my farm none of them did it for "ideological reasons"....which I believe would also give incentive to do the best job possible....because you truly believe in it.

And aesthetics need to be put on the shelf because it may not look so good....but I hope looks are deceiving.

[Klause]

Klause nitrogen is nitrogen, there is no such thing as synthetic nitrogen. Go take a chemistry course or talk to a real unbiased soil scientist. They will tell you nh3 is as good as any other n source.

Micros are a waste of time 95 percent of the time. The universities have done trials and research it doesn't pay.

So you aren't really organic just but don't use nitrogen or sprays I really can't graso how the economics of that can work with no premium for the grain.

Wow.

No it isn't. Urea is different than ammonia nh3 is different than nh4+

I'm well versed in nitrogen and by synthetic I mean synthesized (produced by a chemical reaction).

Pretty much all fertilizer N comes from the Haber-Bosch process where natural gas is reacted with air and a catalyst

Urea is further processing

NH3 has been proven to be bad for soil biology... A necessary evil some say... But I'd modern rihzobia can make the N from air instead of us buying it... Plus manure for instance... Why not do that instead?

The science of production is always changing as we learn more. Keep in mind the world grew grass and Des dinosaurs for a long time before we started farming...

Another thing... Nitrogen fertilizers will be hardest hit by carbon taxes as they are made using fossil fuels.

[farmaholic]

I remember a while back, someone sarcastically commenting about adding a "little coal dust" and how could it possibly make a difference....when you think about the minute amount of active ingredients of some pesticides sprayed on a crop and the effect they can have....whose to say humate/humic acids couldn't have a beneficial affect as well.

[Oliver88]

Klause, Is there credible studies that show NH3 being bad for soil biology?

[pourfarmer]

Farming without inputs doesn't work, regardless if you're organic or conventional.

The conventional farmers use herb/insect/fungi-cide and fert. Organic guys inputs are time, fuel and steel.

Some of us crazy organic guys choose to make use of innoculants, foliar sprays, plow downs, animal manure, compost tea, bacteria, fungi, etc.

There is a ever growing list of approved inputs, big money is being spent on developing organic inputs, just this year one of the larger chain of suppliers started carrying organic fertilizer made from (city) food waste that has been commercially composted and pelletized. It is affordable, and seems to works well when used in conjunction with green manure, high rate inoculation, and those pseudoscientific foliars.

I have yet to see a weed that has been resistant to steel, conventional or organic.

Keep your head in the sand, listen to that fert/chem sales rep, ignore the market trends, tell yourself that modern mining and fert production is "sustainable", and most importantly: keep growing BIG BUSHELS for LOW DOLLARS to Feed the Worldâ„¢

[fjlip]

"I have yet to see a weed that has been resistant to steel, conventional or organic. "

Agree but during the growing season, the billions of weed seeds germ and grow IN the crop, go to seed for more billions of weeds to come.
Maybe market gardens, row weeded, hand pulled, never field crops.

[bgmb]

Klause, Is there credible studies that show NH3 being bad for soil biology?

Yes, pro ably done by some donkey who thought injecting exhaust would replace fert lol.

[bgmb]

Lots of land has been ruined in this area by organic farmers. Fact

[sumdumguy]

Government cheap food policy, systemic waste and market manipulation puts farmers at a disadvantage. Universities, research programs and governments are on-the-take and so they pander to the big input companies. Propaganda and data from these "legitimate sources" can easily contort the minds of the masses. As far as I am concerned, I can make judgement calls and take chances on my own experience, experience of my peers and some people that I can trust. Then they are my own mistakes. If I seem cynical, I am because of the crap. For example, the BS about the ice melting at the North Pole, legitimacized by many "credible" sources. Turns out the North West Passage had thinner ice and has been open and navigable many times in the last century alone.

The internet is such a convenient avenue for sowing propaganda. "Facts" from the internet or news sources have become so bogus because of people with motive. Scads of people are making money off of it and it's so easy to blast the crap out there. Think it is any different when farmers spend hundreds of millions of dollars on inputs and are so hungry for the big yield? Slice and dice and swallow a small part until you see proof.

[pourfarmer]

"I have yet to see a weed that has been resistant to steel, conventional or organic. "

Agree but during the growing season, the billions of weed seeds germ and grow IN the crop, go to seed for more billions of weeds to come.
Maybe market gardens, row weeded, hand pulled, never field crops.

Incrop tillage is a thing for organic producers. Also a good healthy crop will compete heavily with weeds even before it canopys.

Maybe I've just been lucky for the past 15 years. My fields are cleaner then when I started, not completely weed free but they look better then some conventional fields with rr resistant wild oats, where you wonder if there is actually canola under the wild oat canopy.

I don't doubt there are poor organic growers out there half assing it, but to paint all organic producers with the same brush, is crazy. I take pride in my crops and my fields. They are not perfect, some lack OM, some have areas with prevalent weed issues, but I feel i am gaining ground using nutty, unscientific methods. My soil tests and yield data are helpful and reassuring.

I am sorry you had a poor experience with your neighbouring organic farmer(s).

[Klause]

Well the fact nh3 causes harm is common knowledge in many circles..

https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/blogs/1-covering-no-till/post/5012-should-you-quit-using-anhydrous-ammonia



Btw even the NCBI is now studying the use of and effects of humic and fulvic acids.


Right on... Triburon-methyl will kill narrow leaved hawksbeard... Dandelion... Suppress thistle kill volunteer canola etc etc at about 4 grams per acre.


Think about that. 4 grams. On an acre.

[Guest]

Farming without inputs doesn't work, regardless if you're organic or conventional.

The conventional farmers use herb/insect/fungi-cide and fert. Organic guys inputs are time, fuel and steel.

Some of us crazy organic guys choose to make use of innoculants, foliar sprays, plow downs, animal manure, compost tea, bacteria, fungi, etc.

There is a ever growing list of approved inputs, big money is being spent on developing organic inputs, just this year one of the larger chain of suppliers started carrying organic fertilizer made from (city) food waste that has been commercially composted and pelletized. It is affordable, and seems to works well when used in conjunction with green manure, high rate inoculation, and those pseudoscientific foliars.

I have yet to see a weed that has been resistant to steel, conventional or organic.

Keep you're head in the sand, listen to that fert/chem sales rep, ignore the market trends, tell yourself that modern mining and fert production is "sustainable", and most importantly: keep growing BIG BUSHELS for LOW DOLLARS to Feed the Worldâ„¢

Hard to argue with this post !
Like a green roughneck told me on the rigs years ago when i was bitching about having to do my job with a computer when they first started showing up in the patch . His words of wisdom were : "change with change , or change will change you out ". I have contemplated that many, many times over the years !! I did change, but the guys who never went home

[bucket]

Klause

I have hit my narrow leaf hawksbeard with db858 plus 1.5 liters of glyphosate plus barricade in crop. ....it doesn't kill it....