I could support a Carbon tax if it were for all the right reasons.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

I'm as angry as every other productive member of western Canada at having another anti industry wealth transfer tax imposed on us by the drama teacher.

BUT, I think the I could make the case for a HYDROcarbon tax with a lot of conditions. I could make a long list of reasons to conserve this finite, non renewable and precious resource that is fossil fuels, but none of them involve reducing the life giving CO2 which is released when it is burnt.

Some day, when the cheap easy fossil fuels have all been burnt, our cold, starving offspring are going to look back on the glory days of the hydrocarbon based economy and wish we had conserved this precious asset a bit better than by burning it in Escalades driving our kids to soccer practice.

Fossil fuels are the miracle substance that has allowed the industrial revolution, the green revolution, allowed the population to grow to over 7 billion using less land per person than ever, extended lifespans by multiples, virtually eliminated famine and weather related deaths in the first world, and parts of the rest of the world. Allowed cheap fast transportation, communication, fertilizer, synthetic chemicals, plastics, and basically every product we use everyday. It's energy dense, and relatively safe to carry around without any special packaging. There are so many (so far) irreplaceable uses for fossil fuels. According to some scientists of dubious ethics and even more questionable methods, it may even warm the globe, which, if only it were true, would be a huge benefit to agriculture and humanity, especially considering where the earth is at in the current cycle. As a bonus, burning hydrocarbons releases plant fertilizer which also aids in drought tolerance of plants, and has been a big contributor, (though rarely given credit)to the green revolution, imagine the hangover when we are forced to quit releasing CO2 and crop yields suffer at the same time as the energy required to grow them is in short supply. All these benefits and we seem to be determined to burn it as fast as we possibly can, to ensure there is nothing left for the next generations to use.

If someone tried to sell me on the concept of a carbon tax by claiming that its purpose was to try to conserve this life giving resource at least a bit longer until we figure out what will replace it, where it is replacable, I'd be willing to listen. The list of conditions would have to include the tax being imposed worldwide so it doesn't economically cripple one country and simply shift the consumption elsewhere. The tax would need to be revenue neutral( as if any tax ever could be, bureaucracy being the inefficient life sucking leach that it is. Not only revenue neutral, but neutral to the region to which it is collected, not redistributed to other regions or countries, or elite politicians. Its entire purpose would need to be discouraging needless burning of fossil fuels by driving up the price. The free market will find cost effective alternatives where they are practical. For those industries or uses where there is no cost effective alternative, at least the fossil fuel option will last a few more years, and all market participants worlwide will be equally punished. No expensive follies such as carbon sequestration projects. No sending money to a third world country. Not burning additional non renewable fuel/energy to cut emissions of a beneficial gas. This ridiculous scheme I find the most frustrating.

Just look at some of the ridiculous uses we have for fossil fuels. We burn copious amounts of this non renewable resource to recycle RENEWABLE resources like cardboard and paper, imagine how future generations will view such activities. How many farmers burn it to dry grain just so we can farm far more land than is mother nature allows otherwise. How many times do we elevate/auger then drop the same kernel of grain by the time it makes it to the end user? How much energy does that consume, and if you had to do it by hand would you find a better way than to carry it all to the top of the bin just to drop it all the way to the bottom? I could list thousands of examples that prove that we consider the cost of energy today to be irrelevant.

Energy today is virtually free when compared to any other source of energy humans have had access to in the past. How many acres of land would you need to feed horses or slaves or kids(not trying to compare the three) if you had to use their energy instead of diesel fuel? I argue that the price of oil could increase by 100's of times and still be cheaper than the alternatives that preceded it when all costs are considered.

[Retired]

I basicaly agree But hold on you are liable to take a lot of heat from the BTOs.

[tweety]

AlbertaFarmer5, the only problem is no one here other then perhaps you and i give a crap about your most excellent post. The level of greed is astounding and this generation will fight any conservation efforts whatsoever. Burn it like its free, because it basically is.... For now. Who cares about the next generations, right? That's their problem.

[tweety]

I find it amazing it is impossible to determine how the tax will be allocated, and for what, who, and who will be doing that here in SK.

[farmaholic]

tweety....when gas was $1.24 a liter no one stopped driving junior to the hockey rink in JULY!

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Full Disclosure, just so that no one calls me a hypocrite... After typing the original message I went out and started a 470 HP diesel truck to move 50 Bushels of very tough grain 200 feet to an auger, where I hoisted the box fully, then dropped the grain to the ground, then simultaneously started a 100 HP diesel tractor to elevate the grain most of 40 feet to the top of a hopper bin before dropping it most of the way to the bottom, with the intention of drying/cooling the grain with a fan powered by coal fired power plant(if it ever gets warm or dry enough). Earlier in the day, I drove a 50 km round trip to my energy industry job to do work which could have easily been accomplished on my computer and cell phone from home. Meanwhile my wife drove our two children/slaves to the school bus stop and to Karate, an 80 km round trip in an SUV. Before work, I drove a 650cc quad around to move cows. I sit here now comfortable with the natural gas furnace and lights on.

I did not intend the examples to be against BTO's, just as an indication that energy is truly free, that we can burn it to do a job the sun is quite capable of doing.

[biglentil]

Lovely pie n the sky thought. We provide a fundamental necessity of life we are not the wasters. Loading a 10000 bushel bin might use 15 gallons once a year. Hardly a waste that 10k bushel bin stores the calories to support life of 2000 people. Running a bit of aeration to prevent spoilage hardly a waste. Put a gas guzzler tax on 35 foot Rv's, 24 ft 600hp wakeboats boats, lifted trucks, 3000 sqft houses, flights to Maui and ocean going yachts but not my air seeder. Force the railways to provide us some f'ing branch service.

Im sorry solar is far from capable of powering my combine, air drill, or even my loading auger.... The sun does not always shine nor do we have the means to effectively store it.

[tweety]

Most of that making rich people even fatter. The poor are still hungry, and will be a bigger and bigger crowd as oil becomes more scarce.

The world is awash with food, yet we spend huge resources to grow more and more for less and less of those that can afford it.

[biglentil]

Thats right Tweety with our genius and diesel fuel we have innovated our way from a world population of 1 billion just 200 years ago to over 7 billion today. Its like the movie Speed but instead there is no stopping this bus.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Lovely pie n the sky thought. We provide a fundamental necessity of life we are not the wasters. Loading a 10000 bushel bin might use 15 gallons once a year. Hardly a waste that 10k bushel bin stores the calories to support life of 2000 people. Running a bit of aeration to prevent spoilage hardly a waste. Put a gas guzzler tax on 35 foot Rv's, 24 ft 600hp wakeboats boats, lifted trucks, 3000 sqft houses, flights to Maui and ocean going yachts but not my air seeder. Force the railways to provide us some f'ing branch service.

Im sorry solar is far from capable of powering my combine, air drill, or even my loading auger.... The sun does not always shine nor do we have the means to effectively store it.

BigLentil, I agree, I only offered the auger example because it is something that has a manual labor equivalent that we can wrap our heads around. We have all carried a couple 5 gallon pails of grain, and tried to climb a ladder with a bucket. The energy consumption to fill that bin is miniscule compared to the calorie value of the grain. But, if the fuel truck suddenly can't come and I have to fill that bin with buckets, I will find a way that doesn't involve carrying the first buckets to the very top to drop them all the way back to the bottom. But because the energy to lift that grain is virtually free and available easily, we don't even need to consider the efficiency of any operation. I could have used the example of dragging 1000 bushels of seed up and down hills in a cart behind an air seeder all day, but I have no frame of reference for how much human effort that would require.

If we do end up consuming the remaining viable fossil fuel supplies before developing an alternative that can be used for large scale farming applications, we may well need to consider these little inefficiencies.

And, if the tax is not only on your air seeder, but also mine, and our Aussie, US, Brazilian, Russian, Chinese competitors, then the playing field is back to level, and it is really only a tax on discretionary energy such as the boats and RVs that you mention. And if you can find ways to be more energy efficient, you have a big advantage over your competition.

How much grain drying is done just to save on the discounts when the grain is marketed? Its not like the cow or pig really cares if the barley is 14% or 16% moisture, but we spend the energy removing that moisture because it makes economic sense. Spend a few pennies drying the grain, so the buyer doesn't deduct a few dimes for moisture. But at the end of the day, it is a net cost that didn't accomplish anything except burning more of a non renewable resource.

[samhill]

If it's any consolation, remember in our world, our planet, matter is neither created nor destroyed, merely changed to a different form or composition. Still available when someone discovers how to access and use it.

[AlbertaFarmer5]

BigLentil, that chart, showing exponential growth is exactly what fossil fuels have allowed. But if you extrapolate any exponential function very far, you will find that exponential growth is always impossible for very long in a finite environment. Look at a chart of energy consumption, it looks just like that one, and is just as unsustainable, in fact I am quite certain that the population chart will exactly follow the energy growth chart, on the way up and down(inevitably) If we keep on the path we are on, both charts are going to have a precipitous fall, with a little conservation a bit sooner, maybe they could both level off a bit instead.

Called the most important video you'll ever see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZA9Hnp3aV4 about exponential growth.

I am very optimistic about humans ability to innovate our way out of the next energy crisis. But that innovation is going to require a lot of energy in itself, not to mention peace, and order and resources. If we all keep burning hydrocarbons like there is no tomorrow, when the next energy crisis comes( and it is probably 20 or more years away yet, as commodity cycles go) there might not be enough energy, peace or order to make the transition. And I'm not sure that I trust the general population or government to have enough foresight to allocate remaining supplies to farmers if push comes to shove. When we see our clueless current leader pull a stunt like this, it gives me even less hope that they would do the right thing in a real crisis.

[oneoff]

Power of doubling. Needs to be brought up to at same exponential rapidity; just to keep newcomers aware.

[grassfarmer]

Absolutely AF5, I have said many times that irregardless of the causes of climate change the solutions put forward involving reducing fossil fuel use are needed for sustainability anyway. It should be obvious to anybody with a brain that we can't continue to burn through finite resources at the rate we are. We live in a wasteful world - how many resources does it take to support the Kardashian family who appear to contribute nothing of value to society? Extreme examples apart we are not immune to waste in agriculture. The North American food system from field to plate including processing, transportation etc is said to use 13.3 calories of energy (mostly fossil fuel) for each calorie going into the consumers mouth. An old fashioned agriculture using mostly human and animal energy as still happens in many parts of the world would typically return 3-6 calories of food for every calorie expended.

[biglentil]

And your solution grassfarmer return us to the stone age? Do your part 1st grassfarmer tear down all your barbwire fences, sell the herd, let the bison roam free and move into teepee. Taxing us so JT can provide a full handout to another 50000 immigrants will hardly solve the problem.