Selling to the US without the CWB

[parsley]

thalpenny,

You continue to talk about "capturing the pecuniary benefit", but the pecuniary benefit requirement was put in the Licensing part of the Act which applies to ALL applicants actoss Canada. Not just the West.

Therefore, the "pecuniary benefit" requirement must be applied equally to every province, and you do not do this! You are trying to apply it to only Western Canadians. Naturally, you wish that this "pecuniary benefit" requirement is in the Marketing part of the Act that only applies to the West. It is not.

For you to pretend that the Licensing tariff fee that Parliament states is to be applied to all exporters, is a fee targeted only at the Western farmer, is best described as "fraudulent and misleading at best and downright conniving at worst".

Now, if you would be so kind as to answer the following question, thalpenny...so that we can do this one step at a time...

Does the 14(b)requirement, which is the pecuniary benefit phrase, lie in the Licensing Part IV or in the Marketing Part III?

Answer with either Licensing OR Marketing, if you would be so kind

Parsley

[TOM4CWB]

Thalpenny;

Are you smart like a fox, or do you still not understand what a cash price is...

CASH, is CASH, TO take to the bank, deposit, pay bills, and buy groceries.

A CASH price that reflects a premium price, that you say the CWB extracts...

A cash price avaliable at my local elevator, so I can be environmentally responsible, a cash price that I don't have to truck my grain 500miles one way to recieve!

You wrote;

"Take a look at any grain company that offers a pooled price for special crops alongside cash prices. They always face the risk of unavailable supply for the pooled contracts if the price rallies."

Thalpenny, how many pools alongside cash price systems have you been involved in exactly???

What risk are you talking about?

If I run a pool, I decide exactly who to let into my pool, and what are the terms of my pool. The people in my pool, are in the pool for the whole crop year, or they aren't in the pool at all, for the specific portion of crop they decide to market in my pool.

This is not rocket science...

Sask. pulse processors run pools, and they satisfy the needs of those in the pool, as do bean processors/marketers for growers in Southern Alberta!!!

And growers decide how, where, and when to market their products...

Practical experience totally debunks the myth you have just tryed to pass off as fact, and what you say is not possible happens every day.

In fact other products that I grow, market, and deliver to my customers, that in turn deliver world wide to quality concious consumers of these my products, are more often pooled than sold cash in these specialty markets!

Fescue, timothy, straw, hay, seed barley, seed wheat, canola, einkorn, peas practically every non-board crop grown on my farm has been pooled in one fasion or another.

And none of us involved in these my pools, ever did the any of transactions against our wills, except with the CWB!

Section 32 of the CWB Part III give the CWB authority to market grain through the CWB Pools, IF it is "offered" in the manner specified in Part III of the CWB Act.

Part III, which is specifically and only for grain produced in the "designated area".

Is threatening jail terms and fines, to force farmers into the CWB Act Part III, actually a farmer "offering" grain to the CWB???

[ianben]

Thalpenny
The MMB like the CWB, appears to be doing, caused its own demise by not listening to its farmer customers.

I am not saying to MMB was good and should have carried on as it was.

Just that change could have been handled better if we had seen the pit falls.

Enlightenment on both sides is needed.

The CWB could also learn much from our mistakes.

Is anyone there actually listening to what these farmers are saying?

If parsely is cherrypicking you are surely on the gravy train!!!

Is not learning and comunication what got us out of the jungle into supposed civilization

[ianben]

Parsley
You obviosly hold strong beliefs and I respect you for that.

I am never sure how much is in my glass till it is empty.

I would pay the fine and get on with my life rather than go to jail.

I would be perpared to compromise for a workable solution.

I just want a future for farmers everywhere.

[Everest]

thalpenny

I think you are refering to me when you say that some people in this thread would leave the CWB in place only for those that want to use it. That part of your comment is absolutely correct. I do not advocate getting rid of the CWB. I advocate making it voluntary.

However where you are absolutely incorrect, is in your statement that it removes the "financial benefit". Tom, for me, and for lots of other farmers, the CWB provides no financial benefit. There is a cost. That is a FACT.

For others, who percieve that they would attain a lower price if they marketed direct, there arguably may be a benefit. But it would only be a benefit above what THEY could achieve...not what everybody could achieve. For them, my desire is to leave the CWB in place. It will (or may) net them more $$ than if they had to operate without it. It should be their choice.

But Tom, do YOU think it is legitimate for me to be forced into the compulsory marketing regime, when it does not meet my needs, and costs me money? And secondly, do you think it is legitimate for those who would remain in the CWB system to have the right to force me in as well, and thereby force me to accept less for my grain because of it?

[parsley]

thalpenny,

Several times, you have referred to a "no cost export licenses", as you again did on this thread.


Just so that we are on the same page, I would hope that I have not expressed what you refer to as:
,
'just give us no-cost export licenses'


I try to be more careful than that, thalpenny.

A no-cost export license actually means selling to the Board, and going through the buyback and making sure that the market price minus the initial price equals zero.

I NEVER mean to advocate this, and if I have made a mistake by doing so, let me correct it at this time.

I advocate a NO-BUYBACK export license. NOT a no-cost export license. A No-buyback export license means I bypass CWB marketing and pooling. It means I do not jump through the Board's buyback policy. It means I sell directly to my buyer.

I'd appreciate it if you'd file the difference for future reference.

Looking forward to the answer to the question I asked,
As Always, Parsley

[AdamSmith]

thalpenny, the fellow who started this thread was clearly a CWB fan, and that's great. But I noticed when he cited the reasons he supported the CWB, he didn't mention anything about price premiums and market advantage, he mentions the fact that he likes having a professional marketer market his grain for him.

In an open market system, the CWB or anyone else for that matter would be able to provide that service.

The point thalpenny is this, a voluntary pooling service would be one that would still be in high demand and the CWB could still remain an active and important participant in the grain business.

Pooling is the service farmers want, single desk is the service the CWB wants.

[Vader]

Is Ianben just blowing smoke when he talks about the demise of the Milk Marketing Board?

The Ontario situation is pointed to as a success. Bear in mind that they produce on average only 5% of Canada's wheat and virtually all of that is moves locally to millers in Canada and the US. One would think that given their exemption that they would prosper from this marketing opportunity. In fact that is what is said over and over on this post.

Check the OWPMB website http://www.ontariowheatboard.com/Basis.html They quote a cash price for Hard Red Spring Wheat of $7.26 on their Pool C. The market for this wheat is virtually on their doorstep where the majority of Canada's wheat is milled by Archer Daniels Midland. In this situation freight is not a significant cost.

Now check the CWB website at http://www.cwb.ca/db/contracts/pool_return/pro.nsf/WebPRPub/2002_20020926.html

The Canadian Wheat Boards September PRO for wheat is $308.00 per tonne. When an Ontario miller buys this wheat he will have to pay the freight from Thunder Bay to Ontario which adds to his cost. Ontario millers do purchase significant quantities of CWRS wheat to blend with poor quality Ontario wheat since Ontario growers do not grow sufficient quantities of Hard Red Spring wheat. So converting $308 per tonne gives $8.38 per bushel. It would appear that the Ontario miller has successfully purchased his Hard Red Spring wheat from Ontario growers for more than a dollar a bushel less than what it costs him from the CWB.

Now bear in mind that this comparison assumes that the CWB sells their wheat to the Ontario miller at the PRO. That is highly unlikely. In fact the PRO is a blended price reflecting all of the CWB sales in 70 countries. Obviously not all of these sales are done at equal values. Sales of CWRS wheat to Canadian and American customers are made at premium values for a number of reasons including a) customer demand for quality, b) proximity (which results in attractive freight options for the buyer), and c) the customers ability to pay. So that would imply that Ontario millers pay more than the PRO for the wheat they buy from the CWB. What is the premium that these miller pay for Canadian Wheat. We all have some impression of the differnce between the CWB PRO and spot prices in the US for equivalent quality.

Why have the prices in Ontario not arbitraged up to the premium prices one would expect from the US Customers? You be the judge.

What if these Ontario farmers produced 20 million tonnes per year instead of one million tonnes? What if we unleashed them on Canada's other premium markets? Could they have the same impact on our markets such in Japan, and Northern Europe? What about the countries that do not have the desire or ability to pay premiums. Could those countries also be successful in negotiating lower prices from individual farmers caught in the cost price squeeze of international subsidies?

There may be examples of marketing systems that would be an improvement on the CWB but the Ontario exemption is an example of what NOT to do.

[charliep]

Vader

Just a note to make sure quality characturistics are included in a the price comparison. The $308/t is a port based payment for 1CWRS 13.5 % protein - the best of the best. My understanding is that millers are not even being offered this (price so high they can't afford).

What is being sold to domestic millers is 3CWRS. Grain companies are very busy segregating protein in the elevator system - I know this from my brother who has 3CWRS 14.5 protein. This product is worth $15 to $20/t less (differential could be higher on miller level prices).

I would find it interesting to have a better understanding in quality characturistics between Ontario and western Canada. Is the price you are quoting for spring wheat or winter? Protein guarantee? Guarantee on falling number? Other characturistics?

[TOM4CWB]

Charlie and Vader;

Charlie, you are exactly right on the quality... OWPMB uses CERS standards not CWRS, and a different grade base reference... plus protien premiums on top of this price...

Vader, talking about apples to apples, why is Ontario sucessful in creating forward prices for the 2003 crop, minimum price contracts for the 2003 crop, Cash prices after Aug. 1 for the 2002 crop...

What exactly are you defending here, are you saying that the present operations at the CWB are acceptable, and the CWB doesn't need to offer more risk management tools?

Did you actually make a reasonable living by physically selling Board wheat and barley to the CWB in the last 5 years?

[parsley]

thalpenny,

Before we get off track, would you please answer my question:

Does the 14(b)requirement, which is the pecuniary benefit phrase, lie in the Licensing Part IV or in the Marketing Part III?

Parsley

[parsley]

ianben,

I wanted to reply to some of your comments. As it turns out, I'm not one of the farmers who went across the U.S. border, but I do have tremendous respect for what they did and what they are doing, and I want to do everything that I can to help them.

Ghandi was a similar type of protester. The British set up a salt tariff at the ocean front and the Indians, who really needed salt to preserve their food, were required to pay a levy on the salt they got from the ocean... to the British! The group of British schemers thought it was a wonderful idea. Ghandi didn't, so he protested by not paying the tax, and running the ocean border. He got jailed. He did it again with more brave souls. They got jailed. It took over 400,000 Indians running the salt border before the British simply packed up their tariff tent, and declared, "No more tax".

Of course, that particular lot of British monopolists are not any more representative of the British people, than the Wheat Board levying monopolists are representative of Canadians.

Unfortunately, every nation has a group like them, but they mostly get ignored until they become so out of control, and so arrogant, and so demanding, that they get dumped.

I want all farmers to do well, because I respect all of them immensely. In every country. In Canada, farmers provide 400,00 jobs in primary production. 8.5% of Canada's GDP. $24 billion in exports. 1.2 million dairy cows. 15 million beef cattle and calves. 24 million laying hens producing. 6.5 billion eggs. 12 million swine. England is the same. Farmers create wealth. And every bloody one of them deserves to put some of the wealth they create into their pockets. You are one of those fellow farmers in another country, ianben, and just by your writng, I'll bet that there isn't any one of us on Agri-ville who doesn't feel as if we couldn't e-mail you and say, "Hi ianben, I'm Parsley and I'm coming to England, can I look you up? You might get a little surprise, but that's the bond farmers have, and will continue to enjoy even if they disagree on what church to attend, or what school to attend, or what woman to marry, or what marketing system to use. Farmers like talking about farming.

At Christmas time, we will celebrate thirty five years of marriage and we have lived all of them on this farm. Farm life is a good life, but it bears protecting from predators. When you are snozzing, another tax goes on the land. Or more school tax. Or higher fuel tax. Or another regulation. Or another expert goes on the payroll that you are picking up the tab for. It will happen if you snooze. When it comes to the Wheat Board, a lot of us are wide awake, but the nightmares will return as long as the CWB operates as it does.

Cheers, ianben,
Parsley

[ianben]

Hi Parsly
Yeah. I would be pleased to meet up with any agri-viller who was over here. In fact I would be disappointed if they did not give me a call.
I was married 30yrs last July and farmed all my working life. Farming has been good to me and I still love what I do.
Things are changing now though, as I am sure they always will.

Some people see change as bad, I see it as a way to make things better.

There are ways to change things which make things better for everyone.
Farmers could change the way we market and treat our customers which would be better for us both.

These are the changes we should go for in my opinion

[eatmorewheat]

Cdn millers pay a premium for cwb wheat.

We are overpaying and the oppressed western farmer is getting under paid.

visit www.hayhoe.com for current cwb prices eastern millers pay

Real simple economics--- overcharge your captive market and discount the rest. End result, captive market only takes 15% of average crop soooo the other 85% draaaaaaags down your final return.

Break free the western farmer and pasta, bagels, frozen dough leaves the prairies NOT RAW wheat. This is how you combat US farm bill an EU CAP. Think harder than your competitor and you beat him.

Ontario now about to begin to set up cookietown.

Free wheat in the west.

[Vader]

Eatmorewheat,

Obviously you haven't heard about the US challenge to imorts of Canadian bread and other baked goods from Canada, similar to the challenges to wheat imports.

US Millers have excess milling capacity that is currently not utilized which is greater than the total milling capacity in Canada. In other words if Canada's milling industry could be shut down then American mills could run at capacity and supply all of Canada's requirements.