Easy calving Breeds

[cowman]

Grassfarmer: I too like my bulls thick! But for a heifer bull... I like them thin on the shoulders and hips...not that I pick them that way any more...what the cows get...the heifers get!
I figure if a heifer can't have a decent sized calf then ...to hell with her? We had a ceasarian here five years ago...can barely remember the one before that...probably twenty years ago! Not too say there weren't a few ugly pulls over the years! I don't think the vet has been out for several years for a calving. Twenty heifers this year, one pull(backwards)...although still three to go!
I sometimes think if you do this enough you get a "sixth sense" about who is going to cause you problems and who isn't?
I like big calves. If a calf is under 90 pounds, I consider him a scrub. My cows would probably average around 1400 lbs. in there working clothes. Too big? I don't know, they seem to work for me.

[coppertop]

The debate will go on forever on the attributes of each breed. I have watched new breeds come and go, some of them just haven't caught on although they have many desirable traits.
Marketing has a lot to do with the popularity of a breed, and Angus has done a fantastic job over the years of spreading the word about their breed.

I have seen representatives of breed associations turn people away from their breed because they tend to be far too vocal and derisive about other breeds rather than marketing the good points of their own breed in a way that will get the attention of commercial producers.In my years in the cattle business I have never felt the need to knock another mans cattle to promote my own.

[smcgrath76]

Just a technical note here. Nothing earth shattering.
Many breeds offer tools to evaluate calving ease/birthweight. For breeds with Calving Ease EPD - these are a better indication of calving problems than birth weight or birthweight EPD.
If you are using a bull from a breed without these tools (which is fine), try to select for light birthweight within herd rather than just an absolute low birthweight. A lot of things can influence birthweight, so looking for outliers within a herd, helps to ensure fewer surprises when you get a bull home and potentially into a different management system.
Another thing to keep in mind is that low birthweights are associated with calving ease, but negatively associated with maternal calving ease. In other words, a heifer with a low birth weight will be born easily, but is slightly more likely to have calving problems when she becomes a mature cow. That said, there are genetics out there that can bend this curve as well.

[cswilson]

smc that is one of the worst things about epd's the assumptions that are made-we've had easy calving cattle forever on this place-i for one would rather calve a bunch of heifers with low birthweight genetics than vice versa-mce e.p.d's aren't worth the paper they are printed on in my opinion. E.P.D's have left the rwalm of breed improvement and are becoming strictly marketing tools for most breeders-where's it going to end plus 50 milk-plus 150 yearling wights-marbling dripping through the hide-and cows that can't function in a commercial enviroment-the Angus breed is well on it's way to becoming black Jersey's but without the pretty eyes. My kids have an old Jersey nurse cow-she winters better than some purebred Angus cows. Best bet for calving ease is stacked selection for it-not breeding a plus 5 bull to a -4 BW cow than calling their calves calving ease bulls.

[grassfarmer]

Sean, the concept of low birthweight calves having a negative correlation with calving as adults interests me. Could you give me a pointer to the source of research on this?
I used to wonder about that with Salers that were marketed in the UK as easy calving due to being narrow at the front but extra wide at the pelvis. I always wondered if that were the case wouldn't the wide pelvis in the calves lead to difficult calvings in itself.
Cowman, do you actually still weigh your calves when they are born? I know a lot of guys that talk about their calf weights yet haven't weighed a calf in ten years.(not implying you are one of those, just curious)
I've never been a fan of fat, heavy cows with bull like front ends as they obviously lack the maternal characteristics and fertility traits we need. Buying a bull with a long narrow face reminds me of the saying about the swaledale sheep breed - they were meant to stand with both front feet on a twopenny bit and suck peas out of a bottle. Not my type at all!

[grassfarmer]

Good post Mr Wilson, I'm quite happy to work in a breed without the EPD culture - too many folks breeding paper cattle.

We had 18 heifers calf this spring, one was a year early and I gave it a light pull to help her out (60 lb calf out of an 850lb dam) as we were heading out to a function. I think I saw two of the others calves hit the ground, the rest were there in the morning, up, washed and fed. We did have at least two backwards calves among the cows this year, saw them both with hind legs clearly showing but they were up and suckled an hour later. Same with the twins - it's great that the less we interfere with nature the better she performs.

[smcgrath76]

I agree with some of your assessment CSW. Breeders screwed up good cattle long before EPD came along, and I am sure we will continue to do so into the forseeable future. I often wonder if it is simply human nature to always have the biggest. I agree wholeheartedly that some is often enough, and a lot is often too much. I don't think we can blame the EPD for the action of the user. That is kind of like blaming Ford Motor Company for impaired drivers. BALANCE. Too often breeders do not use EPD to maintain where they are at.
EPD do describe genetic differences better than raw phenotypes. The danger is that they also provide a tool to screw up faster if used improperly. It's kind of like the impaired driver in a Ferrari instead of the old farm truck, but in the right hands (with the right direction) it is an awfully good thing.

[smcgrath76]

GF - most breeds have estimated this from their own data. I will do some digging in my files here for some more detail.
SM

[cswilson]

Had a heifer get in the bush with a leg and a head out last summer-went out with a rifle to fix the problem when I got home but she'd had the calf on her own-ten pounds less birthweight gives you some leeway on a malpresentation for sure.

[kpb]

I don't have anything worthwhile to add to this topic except one thing. Grassfarmer mentioned Salers a few posts back. This breed seems to be struggling to make a lasting impression in Canada but I will say one thing for them, based on my experience,--you can't kill a Salers calf with a post. I mean they may not be the biggest newborns in the world but they sure are tough. I don't run any purebreds of any breed--I like the baldies the best cuz they're tough too. But I calved out some Salers calves several years ago in the worst weather you'll see and they lived like stink.


kpb

[grassfarmer]

kpb, That's a negative comment about not being able to kill Saler calves with a post - After last years cow attack I will only work with types that you can at least stun with a post!
It's surprising how perceptive cows are - I'd never been afraid of cows before but now I must have a slight, but unintentional hesitation when approaching new calved cows and some of them know it! Now I understand why some of the young workers we had in Scotland seemed to get picked on by certain cows that never bothered me - the cows must detect a slight fear in a person.

[cswilson]

If Saler could of got the disposition thing figured out they would of become a big player-they are great footed cattle also. Not all of them are wild but the bad ones are BAD ACTORS-the few breeders that are left have done a pretty good job of eliminating the bad ones. When I worked for Hunt's at Endiang we had some cows off Vailliant the first Saler import-they'd darn sure chase you down a gopher hole.

[coppertop]

Protective mamas come in various breeds, usually those calves never become lunch for a coyote !!!

[ALLFARMER]

Thanks guys!!

Sorry I couldn't get back sooner 6000km's/week cuts into my spare time.

[coppertop]

And I thought I put on miles !! Easy to see why you need easy calving bulls/females and most importantly why you need a GOOD WIFE !!!!