2004 CAIS Payments

[cakadu]

Have a friend who is wondering if anyone has gotten a payment under CAIS for 2004. Last I read here in the posts was that there were some 90,000 that had to be processed. I told her I would ask you folks if any of you had received 2004 payments yet. I did tell her about carebear's getting audited and I think it was grassfarmer who mentioned about overpayments and I passed that info along to her as well.

Thanks for your help.

[cswilson]

I take my had off to anyone who has figured out how CAIS works. For sure nobody can count on CAIS payments to arrive when needed.
I got a letter yesterday asking if I wanted to withdraw anything from my CAIS account ....

[farmers_son]

I have not sent in my 2004 supplementary so am not looking in the mailbox for that cheque.

CAIS is not hard to figure out. I think it is important that people do take the time and effort to learn the CAIS rules because the CAIS people make mistakes and if you don’t know how much money you should have had coming you will not be able to spot an error. I sent my return back for an appeal and am expecting another cheque amounting to thousands of dollars, mistakes do happen. I would encourage every one to go through their CAIS return very carefully, one mistake can amount to a lot of money. You have 90 days from the date you receive your CAIS return to file an appeal.

Perhaps the accountants are promoting the program as being more difficult than it really is to bolster their business but CAIS is not complicated, the forms are easy to fill out. No one needs an accountant to do their CAIS, much simpler than income tax.

I agree that unpredictability of the payment is a big problem. Don’t forget however you can get an advance that will get about half of the money in your hands within a few weeks of applying. I imagine a lot of producers have applied for and received their 2004 advance.

[grassfarmer]

That's all relative to ability farmers_son - you appear smarter than the average producer. With the sums of money at stake for many producers I would argue that they should use an accountant. I could probably work out the rules to the level where I understand it like you do but my time and skills have a value too and I don't feel doing my own taxes or CAIS are worthwhile uses of my time given that I can hire in someone who is very familier with the procedure to do the job. I assess that on the same basis as getting someone to do my tractor work on a custom basis.
I was dismayed in 2002 during the drought aid program where you got paid on an acreage basis to be in an Alberta Ag office behind a line of mainly older producers. The secretary behind the counter was having a real struggle to get them to provide the information on acres of different land types they had - they knew they had 6 quarters but had great difficulty in telling how much was in hay, pasture crop etc. There are many high tech., high management operations but there are also many "backwoods" operations who really do not have the skills to run the business side of their operations.
If we continue on the inevitable path of more record keeping and produce accountability this type of producer will generally leave the industry, as they have done in Europe, because they lack the skills or desire to learn the skills needed to survive in modern agriculture. It's sad because I have seen some truly gifted producers and stock breeders leave the industry because of this.

[farmers_son]

How do you know if your accountant is doing a good job for you? At least when I hire a mechanic to work on my tractor I know the tractor works afterwards. For that matter, although I may hire a mechanic I am quite able to repair my machinery myself and I have enough knowledge to know if the mechanic was ripping me off or putting on unnecessary parts.

But do you know if your accountant got all the CAIS payment you were entitled to? Or that your taxes are managed properly, both in the short term and the long term. A fancy office is not a guarantee that your file got the attention it deserved or that the person sitting across that desk was really knowledgeable about your farm. Your accountant may only have spent at most a couple of hours working on your file, he/she probably never has visited your farm. More likely than not your CAIS application was prepared by a girl in the back who was getting paid $10 an hour. You gather together the numbers for the accountant anyway, they just input the numbers for you. You are paying them for a questionable service.

There is a lot of money in CAIS, that is why it is worthwhile for those producers who possibly can to understand the program for themselves. There are management considerations with CAIS, not just how to get the biggest cheque this year and I would dare say most accounting firms are ill equipped to offer reliable management advice to farmers. It is my impression that if someone has the skills to access this website they have the skills to learn how to fill out a CAIS form and how CAIS affects their farm.

I make more money putting together my CAIS spreadsheet than I do fixing fence although I have to fix fence too. And unlike some of the comments I hear on these pages from producers who had their CAIS done by accountants I knew when I sent in my application what I was going to receive. But I have seen with my own eyes accountants who were working on behalf of farmers and giving them advice that was just plain wrong. Unless you have enough money to hire two accountants who can check on each other for you, then we are forced to learn the program for ourselves.

Otherwise, how do you know?

[farmers_son]

farmers_ son, some folks find the filling out of forms a daunting task, and need the expertise of an accountant to do so. For those like you that are able to do your own filing and have the expertise to do so , paying an acountant would likely be a waste.

[Cattleman]

I find the forms quite simple to fill out as well farmers_son, but each person has their own set of skills. Your argument works for anything, also your mechanical problem. Do you know if the mechanic put all new parts back in an engine when doing a rebuild, or did he use some of the old parts? Even if he charged you for all new stuff? Someone with a good mechanical ability and good tools, would probably think I was foolish to hire a mechanic for some of the things I do.
I agree the accountants do sell producers on how difficult it is and that they should hire accountants, but they know the rules, and can end up saving some people money if they catch some mistakes. Another group famous for this is lawyers, they make you think we need their skills but writing up legal contracts, and even work for corporations is not that difficult....as long as you know a bit about law.

I say if you are unsure hire an accountant, but I agree it is important to understand the program, and I also don't base much of my management decisions on what my accountant says, but my strength is in numbers.

[grassfarmer]

To clarify, I understand the CAIS program - it is not a difficult concept. I can easily supply the inventory figures etc but the part I was paying the accountant for was to pull it all together, fill in the forms and exploit all the loopholes through which we can gain maximum advantage. With CAIS and my general taxes I pay the accountant to save me/ make me more money than my skills allow. My working knowledge of the loopholes is non existant compared to theirs. Bear in mind also that these systems are all new to me being a recent immigrant.
I stand by what I said about many beef producers in the province - if they were asked to fill in a simple form showing starting and ending inventories, detailing acres in crops and classes of livestock sold throughout the year it would be a difficult task for many and the result would be full of mistakes. That is the reality of agriculture - and I think this is relevant to many of our discussions on here because it influences all our debates on the future of the industry - current and past profitability and whether producers will invest in slaughter plants or leave the industry.

[cakadu]

The arguments being put forth are all valid here and I do believe that people will know their limitations and act accordingly. I am with grassfarmer in that I do not have the time or the inclination to keep on top of all the tax knowledge, so I will pay an accountant who should know. The other thing about hiring an accountant is that they have a professional designation and fiduciary duties that if not followed or upheld I do have recourse against them.

To get back to my original question about whether or not anyone has received a payment for 2004, I take it that is a "no"?

[kpb]

cakadu, I received an advance on my total 2004 payment last fall. I expect the remaining half to come soon.

kpb

[grassfarmer]

From what i've heard it's a no, accountants are still busy sorting out 2003 claims as not everyone has got paid on them yet and some that have are appealing them. Haven't really thought too much about 2004 program yet as I don't want the income this year.

[ALLFARMER]

I put a rush on my 2004 & got my cheque last week $7500 My advise is not to let the accountant handle everything for you. When my accountant and I did my 2003 & he either didn't mail it or it got lost in the mail. Thankfully CAIS let me submit it late. CAIS can figured out you just have to be persistant, thats why the modern successful farmer is a Farm Manager not only a Farmer.

Without the Forward contracting, Crop Insurance, Log haul, & CAIS my farm would not have survived last year.

[lohner]

Ponder this:
If the CGC graded your wheat a No.3,
would you haul to the terminal that gave you a 3?
Or to the terminal that legally gave you consistent 2s, without sticking you somewhere else.
I view all bean counting the same way.