big cattle- little cattle

[PureCountry]

Couldn't have said it better myself "Mr. Wilson". I got into it good with a neighbour the other night. We watched Randys' bull sale video, and right after we watched Kenny Lewis' video. I'd call it a bull sale video if they looked like bulls, but 'stuffed-full-of-malt-video' seems more appropriate. The neighbour thought one of the bulls was really something, 90lb. birthweight and 1600lb. yearling weight. My retort was just don't keep any daughters unless you want 1800lb. cows.

His argument was the old,"As long as they buy calves by the pound...blah,blah,blah." When I asked what it cost to raise those pounds, he didn't have much to say.

[SASH]

I used to look over the fence at my neighbors calves and think how nice it would be to have those high gaining, big calves. Then I watched how much feed he had to put up to feed those cows over the winter and how much land it takes to feed them in the summer. I know for a fact that although he gets more per calf than I do, after expenses I'm making more overall than he is.

[kpb]

all of the comments about the cost to feed big cows with big calves are right, I think. However as someone who feeds calves I can tell you that I need some Char, Simm or Maine in the calf or it will not work. That's just a simple fact--if you want to bring a calf from 500 lbs in the fall to 850 to 900 lbs in the spring you gotta have something that will, first grow and then fatten. There's nothing wrong with those whitefaced calves if you're going to grass them and I do that too. But if you want a calf that's going to grow in the winter you need some bigger cross.
Now I know that it costs bigger money to feed bigger cows and my cows are pretty small in stature because of this. But the guys who are buying your calves in the fall generally want something that will grow the fastest so they can turn their money the fastest. And they will continue to pay the biggest dollars for the tan calves, the black Simmi crosses etc. because of that. It only makes sense and I do the same thing because you can get them big and get them out.

[whiteface]

There are a ton of hereford guys that preach as long as the daylight how efficiency is number one and those tiny 1100-1200 lb cows are by far making them the most money. I tend to agree more with you kbp, the buyers shy away from the whitefaces because an 1100lb cow has a tough time getting her calf to grow much past weaning even if she did get him to 600lbs when he was weaned. Looks good at weaning but then he stops growing while the Char, Simm and Maine calves keep going. I do beleive, and justifiably so, this is exactly where the feedlot guys stop bidding on these squatty pot-bellied calves that won't grow and they know they won't grow. Takes an enormous amount of talent to come up with the right mix in any breed of feed conversion, fertility, weaning weight and performance on feed. Performance on feed is one that I get into a lot with people. Maintaining themselves on grass and seal fat calves off cows milk in the fall are important to cow/calf guys but the feeders want them to get in the lots and eat and put pounds on and while I'm not a feeder, I get paid well for my whiteface calves because they do actually perform in the feedlot unlike most traditional herefords. There's no real point to my post only that I know where you're comeing from kbp and I agree that there is a need for performance on feed in addition to efficiency on grass. Have a good night all!

[cswilson]

That's is a bunch of baloney I've got 1100 pound cows that raise 1300 pound finished steers every crack-I've got years of grid results to prove it and since when is a 1200 cow tiny. That's like Ford bragging to Chevy about making the same size car but having a factory that's 50 percent bigger. There's guys up here running 1700 pound high milking exotic cows and still having to creep feed calves-crazy stuff.

[kato]

I'll play devil's advocate for a bit...

How about the expenses involved in keeping cattle for a longer time? I have a hard time believing we'd be farther ahead wintering small calves 'cheap', grassing them, and waiting until next fall for a cheque.

How about cash flow or such things as interest costs? At the present time, interest rates are not that severe, but I remember the days when they could literally put you out of business.

Or the cost of the land needed to grass those calves? (That's a big one.)Or the fact that the longer you own them, there is always the chance of losing one or two?

And then there's the issue of teeth. I have a feeling that in the next several years, teeth are going to be a hot topic in the cattle business. Right now, even if they have a birth certificate, if the vet says his teeth say he's too old, then he's too old.

What is this going to do to the yearling grass market? A calf born in May, and grassed the next year will come to the feedlot at about 17 months of age. Give him another 400 pounds at 3 pounds a day, and he's 21 months old. If these cattle have been on grass, (which is hard on their teeth), there will be fats at this age that do fail the mouth test. It's a very costly test to fail. Profit can go out the window very quickly if even a percentage of these calves lose their UTM status.

Will the future move to calves that can come off the cow, onto grain and out the other end of the feedlot at 13 months? Even with the higher inputs, having a 100% pass rate on the mouth test will be a definite incentive to go this way.

Just my thoughts.

[kpb]

cs, I'm not sure if you're saying what I said is a bunch of baloney or if what whiteface said is a bunch of baloney or if we're both full of it. And I'm not arguing with anyone that small cows have a big place in the future of our business and are generally more efficient than the big monsters.
All I'm saying, and you can argue it if you want but it is the simple truth, is that you cannot take a calf that is purely British coming off its momma in the fall at 500 lbs. and finish him by, say April or May of the next year. It just won't happen because you cannot grow him fast enough. He'll end up a little butterball. But I can take a Maine or Semi or Char cross with a British and finish him by May because they grow fast and fatten fast. That's the truth, coming from someone who's fed lots of both and that is why, as Whiteface has said, the exotics get more dough from the feeders in the fall.
On the other hand I also grass some and the British are far away the best for that and will end up just beautiful 1,000 pounders by August the next year. It's just that most feeders will not grass but want to finish them quickly in a feedlot. So that's why there's a premium for exotics.

[kpb]

kato, I am so glad you posted a thread because the same concerns about grassing yearlings have been going through my head and you articulated it very well. The fact is that there is a risk in grassing now as I see it from the age point of view. You point out that the industry will move more towards finishing animals at 13 months. Actually the industry as a whole favors that approach now and has for a while. If you can get the animals out faster, you're better off because you can use the same facilities for more animals. As I said in my last post, that's why feeders bid more for exotics in the fall and stay away from the small British calves. They know they can get the exotics to finish without going to grass. I hate to say it because I prefer to grow on grass but we make more money from turning the feedlot calves.

[rkaiser]

Once again I think we have to consider type, rather than breed of cattle in this arguement.

Just looking back at last years Olds College Steer a year results.

5 April born Char Cross calves finished July 13th at 1450 pound average. 3.22 Average daily gain and all graded AAA with only one yeilding #2; the rest #1
Pretty darn good results eh!

Now lets consider
5 April born Galloway sired calves from Galloway crossbred dams.
Finished May 8th at 1302 pounds. 3.43
Average Daily gain and one graded AA with the rest making AAA. Yeild were off from the chars with one Yeild #1, 3#2 and 1#3.
Feed conversion was similar for the two breeds.

[cswilson]

Welll as far as teeth goes-I fed a group of dry twos-heifers that lost their calves-and they all graded after they were finished-they were pushing the 30 month window hard.In fact we made an $80 buck premium on the grid as they all AAA. How many exotic calf feds will marble at 13-14 months-I've compared kill results with some neighbors and not alot. What's wrong with 12-1300 british cross cows bred exotic -best of both worlds smaller production factor plus a calf that will grow fast and still quality grade. Trust me I've done the big cow thing-we ran Exotic cattle for 30 years.