ccia - branding or tagging

[15444]

Why does the CCIA use tags to identify cattle when they should have producers use branding? Remember tags can be removed or fall out and the producer can get blamed for not tagging his cattle. With branding, every producer could have his own registered brand and nobody could remove the mark.

[dbluck]

The two major problems with branding (for CCIA purposes) are: 1. Readability. Packers require a id. that can be read in a few seconds. Shaving old brands will take to long and slow production. 2. Duplication. Brands are registered by province. Live cattle cross provincial(and the American) borders all the time. If a problem was detected at the packers, it would be difficult to determine whether the brand was local or out of province. Therefore the brand would not give the same traceback as a national tag system.

[15444]

Duplication would never be a problem if your brand was registered nationally. There are millions of combinations of brands you could use (i.e. numbers, letters, symbols). There are probably more combinations than producers in this country. As far as readibility is concerned, I really don't care if the packers can read it or not, at least were not wasting money on their stupid program.

[avanderwell]

Yes, I must agree with 15444 on this as we would have to pay to benefit the packers and the government while we receive nothing in return. Most of us already have brands and these have been the most effective form of permanent id which has been used for more than a hundred years and cannot be lost like a stupid tag (and costs you next to nothing as well).

[15444]

Thanks for your support vanderwell ! At least there is somebody who has some common sense and won't bow down to the goverments every word!

[dbluck]

What benefit is this program to packers that isn't a benefit to the cattle industry as a whole (or at all)???

[rip]

While I agree that branding is an important and necesary way of animal identification let us not forget a couple of facts. First it does cost us in lost hides. I realise that most of us in the cow/calf industry don't see the returns coming back to us it does come to the industry and there are producers who don't brand who are using it as a marketing tool when they sell to get a better price for their calves from the feeders. Second we cannot stick our head in the sand and do the same thing just because we have been doing it for the past hundred years. If we as producers want to remain leaders in the world as exporters of our product we have to listen to what the rest of the world is telling us we have to do to keep selling them beef. I think it is amazing how peoples attitudes change with the price of their product. If we were at an all time low cattle market and producers realised that a trace-back system would help market their cattle we probably wouldn't be hearing a lot of opposition.

[rsomer]

Rip: I have noticed lately that the Canadian Cattleman’s Association (CCA) are starting to wish the mandatory tagging program to be viewed as a marketing initiative rather than just herd health which was the focus previously. I am reminded of a quote from Sam Walton, the founder of Walmart, who mused that half of all marketing was time and money wasted…the trick was to figure out which half. The registration of our nations cow herd may or may not be money wasted but I have problems with the CCA making those marketing decisions on behalf of my business, and making me pay for it. The CCA, and I am going to refer to the CCA rather than the CCIA who are merely an operating arm of the CCA as is the Beef Information Center (BIC), does outstanding work on behalf of producers on consensus issues such as fighting the recent trade problems with the United States. But there is a problem with the CCA in that the CCA operates under the protection of a bureaucratic hierarchy that effectively insulates it from being directly responsible to the very producers whose interests the CCA is there to represent. I as a producer cannot vote out our CCA representatives (or for that matter the CCIA and BIC people) if I am unhappy with what is going on in the cloistered board rooms where these decisions are made. On controversial issues such as the tagging program the CCA then finds itself at odds with those producers who are uncomfortable with what the CCA is forcing them to do. I would question whether the CCA should be promoting controversial initiatives such as this mandatory tagging program on behalf of beef producers unless the people making these decisions (the directors of CCA) are willing to stand up before all producers and be elected by a direct producer vote. Until that happens that CCA should restrict its endeavours to issues with broad producer support such as fighting unfair trade. At the very least all beef producers should be able decide the future of their own industry by being given the right to vote yes or no to the mandatory registration and tagging of our nations cow herd.

[15444]

to rip If people used shoulder brands instead of hip or rib brands, we could get somewhat of a better price for our animals. A second of all, I don't really see why we can't keep our head in the sand. At least we don't have to take that extra effort and money to tag those calves before they leave the farm, instead of branding them at spring roundup when we do everything at the same time(e.g. vaccinaion, casteration.etc). I think everyone will agree that it is just so much simpler. I hope Jean Chretian likes his dinner because this program is just one more step that farmers think about in cons, not pros, when getting out of farming.

[bill]

With reference to rsommer June 10/00. I agree for the most part with your concept of the CCA's position. We sometimes have the perception that the CCA represents the primary producer. My understanding is that they represent the cattle industry which includes all of the industry with the cattle producer being just one of a group. The real representative of the primary producer is the ACC (in Alberta). The members of this association are elected and should be accountable to the producers. They are our represetatives on the CCA. It is my understanding that the initiative for a electronic identification came from the top down and the CCA through the sub-committee called the CCIA is only the messenger. I am sure the initiative never intended to have producer input.

[rip]

It is not just an issue of where the brand does or doesn't go. Over half of the cattle producers in this province do not brand and do not wish to brand. If we went to a mandatory brand identification program think of the cost to these people and to the industry. The Livestock Identification service (LIS) would love it though. Most of these people who do not brand use tagging as their form of identification so to them this ID program is not much of an added expense whereas branding would be. We have to go beyond our own fencelines when we are looking at these programs and think of the practices of other producers because not everyone does it the same. I think that my advice to the people who are in real opposition to this just don't tag. Whether there is a fine penalty or not I think that the market will sort it out as the feedlots just won't pay the same price for an unidentified herd. If you are willing to sell your product for a lower dollar then no one can do anything about it and when there is an outbreak of TB or some such disease those of us who are tagging and know that our herd is clear will watch those who aren't go to the trouble and expense of having their herds quaranteed and tested. I feel it is up to you and what kind of a management system you want to run your own operation under. In respose to the operations of the CCA I agree that it is not a perfect system. In a perfect world a provincial election would be nice but then I would truly question the candidates as each of us have our own operations to run and we do not have the time to travel to every fall producer meeting to campaign. It is the producers responsibility to go to the ACC fall producer meetings and if you have a problem with a CCA rep let them know within your zone that he is not the person that you want representing you. You elect your ACC rep, Make them work for you. I know that the ID program is not perfect but if we don't start somewhere and work out the problems as we go along we better be prepared to eat a lot more of our own product because alot of our markets will soon dry up.

[cowhand]

Threats??? For this old cowboy, threats don't work real well. In fact they get me a bit riled. We won't be soon eating any more of our own beef if we don't tag our cows than if we do. The Yankees aren't tagging their beef and that there is where the export market for our beef is. The Japs are buying half their beef from the US, I don't see them stoppin buying USDA beef even if the Yankee cows aren't tagged. Instead of making threats, the CCA and these people should be listening, really listening not just telling us how we should agree with what the CCA wants. What I hear is that most of us aren't against a good herd health program, but we are a bit edgey with what the CCA is shoving at us. If I had some advice for those people who come up with these grand ideas, it would be that the program should not cost us producers any money. That would stop the bitchin about who should pay for it, us cows guys or the feedlot guys or the packing plants. Remember the old bangs programs did not cost us anything even though it must have been expensive to tag and blood test all those cows. If the feds don't see enough good from the tagging program for one and all, not just us cowboys but packers, consumers etc. to pay for it then maybe the need is not that great. But don't threaten me, we don't have a health problem right now, and we arent likely to have one soon either. The CCA has time to do this thing right, it don't have to be up and running tomorrow.

[rip]

I am sorry that you took my comments as threats. I was merely giving my opinion as to how I felt the program should and could run, Thats what I thought these open forums were all about. The US is just as worried about the Japanese as we are. In April at the five nations meeting in Australia the countries participating have asked Canada to see if we can help them out as we are farther ahead and they feel we have, so far, the best system. As to getting the government to pay for it I still feel that it comes out of our pocket one way or the other and personally I get a little tired of always running to the government and telling them how much they owe us and how badly we need to be subsidized. I beleive programs like this can pay for themselves and help us. As for not having a health problem right now, we never do until we get it. I've never had blackleg in my herd but I still vacinate for it. A little prevention can go a long way.

[cowhand]

Yes sir, these forums are for sharing opinions and I’m glad you have taken the time to share yours. About the feds paying for those ear tags, I noticed that the BC Cattlemen based their OK for the tagging program on the government footing the bill. I notice too that the new CCA boss, John Morrison, comes from BC, I will watch and see what comes of that. I think programs like this tagging could pay for itself and help us just like you. There is a bit of problem though that these programs help a whole lot more people, more than just the cow-calf guy and they don’t have to pay for it. Where I come from they are called freeloaders. Even the Aussie government picked up the tab for the ear tags their cow guys were using, and that helped the whole thing get off the ground. You betcha, a little prevention does go a long way, and I don’t hear anyone saying we shouldn’t have a herd health program in place. But I do hear lots of folks saying that there is more than one way to skin a cat and hopefully the CCA will take note of that. And don’t forget we do have a program in place now and from what I hear it still works but isn’t as fast as what some would like. I don’t think the sky is going to fall in if the CCA takes some time to get this done right and get us producers onside. But when the smoke clears it will be you CCA guys who will have the final say as to how this whole tagging thing will go. And I’m hoping you will get it right. Its important. Don’t forget to listen to the guy who is actually going to be putting the tags in though, you need him to go along with you on this or the whole thing is going be a flop. It could be that having the feds look after the cost of the tags like they did with the bangs program is just what the doctor ordered. And if we want something extra like carcass info, then we can pay for that.

[15444]

Inb the latest canadian cattleman's issue, one person became quite upset in a submitted article. He said, among other things, that if he was going to pay for that CCIA tag, its his, and he wants it back from the packers as soon as they are done with it so he can use it again. Let me just say thank you to this man for sticking up for his and everybody else's rights. If nobody is going to by that tag from me, I want it back, because it is mine, Damn it!