An interesting query

[PureCountry]

I can't resist getting in a dig about the post that started this great debate.

If that 12 year old cow was a Galloway or an Angus, she'd be considered in her productive prime, and she'd still be worth $1200.

HA HA HAAAA.

Sorry guys, couldn't resist. I also had to do it to break the tension in here. Yikes!!

Lighten up folks. You've all got some valid points, and cswilson is right when he said you can crunch the numbers however you want to make it work or not work.

The way I see it, if you keep your chin up, boots on, and use your eyes and ears more than your mouth, you'll do just fine. I don't understand how some folks do it, and I CAN see what makes others get by. So I take what I think will work for me, and put my back into making it go. I'll be real careful in the future about questioning the methods of others, because I think that effort would be far better spent in helping one another instead of squabbling.

It's amazing how tough it is to get ranchers and farmers to band together, even in times as tough as these. So, I'll leave off saying you're all welcome at my fire. Give a shout anytime.

780-888-3791

[cowman]

The fact is we all do "this thing of ours" for various reasons...and that is okay? For me profit is a big deal for others maybe no big deal? And that is okay?
If I dwell on the money side of things too much and irritate some people here I am sorry. Believe me, I don't get a decent enough rate of return to satisfy me! And yet I continue to own land and probably will until I die...and that bothers me...because I know it is a loser and yet I can't bring myself to sell it. And that bothers me too, because I believe too much attachment to just about everything here on Earth is not a good or desirable thing!
My son has a very good business head on his shoulders. I've been actively turning ownership of everything over to him...but I told him not to be stupid...when the developers come knocking, sell it,...but not till I'm dead! Every piece of dirt has its price.

[pandiana]

cswilson, I find it very interesting that you are feeding cattle with a sleigh and team. Like you, I have no doubt that there is much that we can do to lower costs beyond what many of us are doing and I am sure this way of feeding is better for our environment as well as conservating our non-renewable resources.

I have a neighbor that also feeds his cattle with a team. He has little to no machinery, owns or leases all his land for pasture, puts up no feed as he has been buying it all. He has no electric waterers as he uses wood to thaw his tank. No yard lights. He lives in a circa 75 year old unpainted house, with plumbing installed about 10 years and heated predominantly with wood. I am quite sure he is debt free and pays all his bills promptly, selling cows to do this as the need arises. This was working well until the drought hit when he had to sell the trees off his land in order to pay the high cost of purchased feed. I admire this neighbor a great deal for living within his means.

On the other hand, I am quite sure that this is not the life style I aspire to. I work as hard and probably live more frugally than most non-farm business people and believe that an expectation of a life-style appropriate for this century is not too much to expect. Dying rich, or providing a living for future generations is not the aim. We just hope to make a decent living doing what we used to believe is the best job in the world.

[pandiana]

whiteface, you said. "I think there are far too many farmers out there surviving on subsidies having no idea what their costs of production is and really not caring..."

Your getting me worried! I do have a very good idea what my costs are (too much), how efficient my cows and farm are (too little to make a profit considering costs) and have applied for most of the recent subsidies that have been available starting with drought in 2002 and must say that I think in total they would cover significantly less than 10% of my expenses. What subsidies have I been missing?

[whiteface]

Probably many of the same ones I seem to think I'm missing, Pandiana, which is why I'm sure I now come across as a bitter hard-luck sorry for myself case. The first and so far only subsidy I ever recieved was a FIDP cheque this spring. Substantial though it was, my operation has always succeeded on its own, my land was purchased by me ( not my parents or given to me), I have a signifigant mortgage, my cows are paid for as is any part of the operation needed to run them. I whine and complain all the while knowing some of the farms around me are so in the red it looks like the Saddledome last night and yet they never fold. Waste is rampant, machinery and new pickups the norm and prices for their calves and grain seem to be in the ashcan every year. I can conclude only two things... the price of my mortgage plus interest is taking a huge toll on the viability of what I'm running or, when I look around me, some of these outfits just have to be running on someone else's money (government or other wise) because they have no ability whasoever to account for some of their costs...I've asked! If there was a smarter, faster, better way to do what I do you bet I want to know, I'm not too proud! But then in asking, it seems next to no one can do the math and come up with figures or predictions or their costs of production,anything! and just about never does any one take into consideration like cowman does the little things that sure as hell add up and need to be factored in to the cost versus profit of running a farm. Pandiana, I guess I don't know "for sure" that it's subsidies that some live on or a rich uncle and believe me, if I knew of any ( that I qualified for! I never seem to get any gov't money because we "make too much" as my accountant put it...ahh the reward of running an operation in the black!!! In other words, none) I would definatly share with you any subsidies that I knew of Pandiana, truth is you probably don't get any either because your operation is also doing well and in the black and you're paying for someone else that shouldn't even be in business. But our country just doesn't work that way. Tax the hell out of the ones that do well to try and save the ones that refuse to figure out the numbers. What is the incentive of ever really doing well...in anything, not just cattle. Other than if you're a big meat packer well then you'd get to import banned Canadian beef because of your "friends in high places." I'm proud that we do well on little or no handouts and I will continue to do so in any venture I take on. It stems from knowing all the details of your business or operation and I say again I admire the hell out of cowman, we need more like you, but by the way cowman, don't ask your son to wait until you're dead to sell your land, the developers come knocking, you're in Tahiti, period, enjoy it a few times while you're alive, don't wait to get the enjoyment out of your "high rent" property. Just my advice! :-)

[cowman]

Well Whiteface: I appreciate the compliments! For awhile there I was getting discouraged being the "pariah" of Agriville!
Often I have thought about where I am at and said "What the hell am I doing here! I could retire in a moment and live the good life"!
Unfortunately I had a mother and father who beat a lot of stuff into my head! When my Dad gave me the farm he told me "I'm giving you this. I paid dearly for it. I'm giving you this in trust, not to piss away. You take care of it and you pass it on. We are free men and the only way we stay that way is if the chain continues! Don't you let me down!"
Now that is heavy stuff! He died less than a year later....I never respected anyone more in my life than him.
What can you do? I love this land more than life itself...what can you do?

[blackjack]

Whiteface... I appreciate you first generation farmers cause of the sacrifices taken to succeed in farming. I to see the generation farmer that spend there time putting in the crops and then its off hunting or fishing. But I imagine the farm will be sold when they retire. Hang in there hopefully the beef prices get better soon.

[CattleAnnie]

CS, We chore our cattle with a team in the winter as well. Not that I wouldn't love a front wheeled assist tractor to cruise around on those bitter winter days, but it's what we can afford (which isn't much). On fair days, it's actually an enjoyable way of feeding the herd. On awful days, it's just the means to an end.
Cowman, I hear you about feeling pessimistic. My situation is unlike yours, in that a couple of years back I left a fulltime 'paying' job, and using mostly borrowed money built the herd up enough that I should have been able to raise my family. Never expected to live high on the hog, just raise those kids, work hard and maybe someday get out of debt. It's darn hard to keep an optimistic outlook in these times, and every morning it's a struggle to get out of bed and get out the door.
Cutting off the internet is the next step around here, but believe it or not, I thank God when I read some of the posts on here. It's sad, maybe, but it's sort of encouraging to realise that I'm not alone with angst and anxiety. It's not that I don't love what I do, it's just that I want to pay bills too.
If there was a way to make things better for this industry, I sure wish I could do it, or at least help. In the meantime, all we can do is just keep getting up in the morning.
Take care.

[whiteface]

Thanks for the appreciation blackjack, I am a "first generation" by choice (not my parents choice for sure! they wanted "better" for me) but I have enjoyed it this far, overcome some amazing obstacles and I like who I look at in the mirror everyday. I've also made some pretty amazing friends along the way too, based on similar goals, mutual understanding and shared knowlege. Thanks, guys for the pick-up! It was really nice to hear your words of appreciation and encouragement. Thanks cattleannie for really seeming to feel what I feel and cowman, I can sure relate, my dad passed away really young and told me not blow it also...the pressure is huge, I love him a lot and he didn't really want me in cattle but believed if you had the "business" skills, we could succeed in whatever we chose and he left me with that trust. I won't let him down or any of you, my friends, who I feel believe in all of us also.

[cswilson]

Guess I'm the eternal optomist-lost my Dad when I was 20 so never really worked with him much-but as far as selling out-Sell out and move where-do what-I'm making a living doing exactly what I want. Most big shots I know were little shots that just kept shooting so thats what I intend on doing. Subsidies are a touchy subject-but we take them-were forced to compete against everyone else who does for pasture,hay etc so it just a business decision.