Something to talk about

[kato]

Very good comment..."I am not sure if that is proven in court if it opens the door for further trade challenges from the U.S. and what if any are the trade implications of this class action suit."

I agree that if this goes to court, the stakes are very high on all sides. What if the government lost? Could other countries or businesses sue for damages caused there? Would there be trade sanctions? I would think anything could happen.

To me, this only makes the case for settling out of court even stronger. In fact, looking at other potential problems arising from a decision in our favour, it would seem that settling out of court is the ONLY sensible action.

The fact that Ottawa fought so hard to stop the case from going forward is probably an indication that they don't feel their side of the case is as strong as ours.

This may be cause for hope. They are going to have to think they have a locked in verdict to risk going ahead with this. We on the other hand, have nothing to lose. The worst that can happen to us has happened so many times in the past five years that we've lost count. Just when we think we've seen it all, it happens again. That's our new normal. So what the heck? Go for it.

[rkaiser]

Go for it is right Kato... And why the hell not. My eyes are going to be on the end product from now on. Any distraction concerning the why or how or what we do with it doesn't matter so much as putting a bunch of lost dollars back into the pockets of the wonderful people in our industry. I know that it will allow me to finish my career in the beef cattle industry and that is all that realy matters to me.

[vagabonddreamer]

fortunately for the rest of us...there are people like F_S and rkaiser and kato and GF...who have their fingers on the pulse (no pun intended)...while all may not agree on the concept of this discussion...it is becoming VERY evident that there will be NO assistance from Govt...and i dont WANT financial assistance...i have had far too much stupid pride all my life to ever accept handouts...i just want a workable environment where i can translate hard work and perseverance into a comfortable living... for my family...

what i need to know from those of you who are smarter than i am...is what do we need to do to facilitate this??

oh...if i get a new resistol out of the deal that would be a bonus...kato...we could exchange yours for a lovely sunday bonnet if you like...lol...vs

[kato]

Don't need a Sunday bonnet. I already have a goofy gardening hat that I'm quite attached to. LOL

What I got from what's in the article, and what's been said, is that cattle producers should be talking to their government representatives and letting them know that we all want an out of court settlement. Apparently this isn't just the federal government, but any kind of government official who could carry the concerns up the ladder.

I know Mr. Palette has read and replied to posts on this site before, so maybe he's reading now? Some insight from him would be nice.

[grassfarmer]

Each to their own but I think this is just wishful thinking and wrong on so many fronts. Really why are the Canadian government any more responsible than anyone else? can't they just turn around and sue the UK government for their mismanagement of BSE - where does it end?
It also provides a legitamacy to the scientifically accepted causes of BSE which I don't agree with.
As for how producers would spend their money if a big payout results, again I think there is some wishful thinking going on. My prediction would be that we would not see producers unite and pool the money to build producer packing plants rather producers would bid it into land and cattle prices to see if they could get a step ahead of their neighbors in the commodity game. Our plans for producer packing infrastructure didn't really fail through lack of funds - it was lack of producer support if we are honest and that hasn't changed.
And after all this life goes on - with all the same problems as before of corporate concentration etc. I would rather producers lobby their politicians for action on the root causes of our current problems rather than lobby for what would amount to just another short term handout.

[Sawbones]

I understand that Keystone in Manitoba is now selling meat and it will be interesting to watch to see if Manitoba producers actually support a local initiative or whether it goes the same route as Sask and AB projects. I wonder how many will pick holes in what is wrong rather than what they can do to make it right. Hopefully it is a blueprint to follow. If we ever do get a chance to invest in local ventures, i want to make certain that the facility is separated from the management so that our investment in the facility is never lost and that the slaughter facility will remain even if there is a change in management of that slaughter facility

[rkaiser]

If you have given up on the hoards grassfarmer --- just think of yourself and your family for a bit. How could you solidify your own little group or your own family operation. I honestly feel that those of us who are left all recognise the problem of corporate control and even though some may simply buy new pickups, most will try to figure out other ways. Canadian Legacy Partners, Canada Gold, North West Cattlemans Beef Alliance..--- name others. These are all good cattlemen who simply need that last bit of cashola to make each of their dreams come true. And when they do, the corporate control model will fail. We know how to export beef, we know how to sell beef domestically. We can do this on our own and don't even have to fight them. Just ask Brian or Lee Nielsen.

I don't how else you propose to make your dream come true grassfarmer. If you have a better plan --- let's hear it. Changing people's minds --- changing ABP --- ain't gonna happen. We are all still in this industry BEACAUSE we are individual thinkers who believe in free enterprise and will do whatever it takes to get our industry back there and away from this corporate communist system we are experiencing.

What would you do with 100 K grassfarmer? I think your business would move forward substantially with shot in the arm like that. I know we would have more than our current three stores in Calgary. We will be in Edmonton, Red Deer and on our way to Lotus land before you can herd those cows of your down the lane to their new feed paddock.

[kato]

Keystone is processing about 20 or 30 head a day. It's a start, but a small one. Actually it's what they should have done in the first place when they tried to start this a couple of years ago. They have already tried to start big, as Natural Prairie Beef, and it blew up big time. We have neighbours who almost lost it all due to that approach. This is why we're sitting back and waiting this one out. If they are smarter this time, and grow the business with the customer demand, instead of producing product and then going to look for a home for it, maybe it will work this time. The jury is still out though.

Anything that gets going now needs to be started small, grown slowly, and stay under the radar until they are firmly established. It's the only way to make it go.

As for a hundred thousand, we'd put it on debt without even wait for the ink to dry. Debt we did not have five years ago. Debt we'd rather not have to pay off with a pension cheque. ;-) If not for BSE, we'd be all paid up free and clear by now. It was that close. And now it's right back to same old same old.

I think if cattle producers in general got a financial shot in the arm right now, you'd see the mood of optimism return, and that's the major ingredient we need to get some new initiatives going. There's not a lot of us left who can afford to invest in something that doesn't have at least a reasonable amount of security attached to it. Losing money at this stage is not an option for most of us. There's no extra cash to play with any more.

[grassfarmer]

Randy, I'm not arguing with the need for producers to invest in plants I just don't believe they will. I don't believe "everyone" left in the industry recognizes the need to do things differently - I think it is still a very, very small minority that want to get involved in producer owned plants or retailing. A whole whack of producers (even the keen ones that attended all the packing plant proposal meetings) would invest IF they are able to dump their cattle off at the plant much like they do with their weaned calves at auction just now, IF there was no financial risk to themselves and IF there was a guaranteed premium up front.
Not knocking the guys who are gung ho but I think they are a lot fewer and further apart than you claim. Even if these new plants get established they would be at the mercy of the big 2 - just like Ranchers was, liable to be shut down inside a year any time the big 2 decide.

I could sure use $100k, who couldn't?, but I certainly don't need it to expand my retail business. I've developed a product and am marketing it successfully by building a relationship with my customers one at a time. Throwing money at it wouldn't make a great difference, nor should it as I don't want to build my future on the basis of getting a free handout every so often.

[per]

Dreaming is good Randy, and good thoughts will come out of them. We were already handed out enough to buy the Lakeside plant but that idea flew about as far as tossing a boulder. Many for sure would take the money and invest it outside the industry to prepare for retirement. Some would pay off debt. Others would covet some more iron. I like the dream and would be in on one more attempt. Just as a side note, I hauled some seed to get cleaned at the seed plant today and noticed an amazing lack of cows on the way. There have been two dispersal's and one reduction in the eight mile stretch. About 350-400 head in all.

[Kathy]

Forgive me for not having time to read all the above posts, but I want to know how you understand this possible payout....

As I have read on the class action documents, any payout in a settlement of any kind, would see the amount already paid out to each producer deducted from the new settlement. If this is correct, then many people would get nothing.

It does not matter to us financially, as we opted out a while back.

I will probably be faced with getting my payout, when the government uses the Animal Health Act to shut us down, or when they use Bill 19 the Land Assembly Project Act to kick us off the land.

If you take a settlement with the Feds on the BSE class Action, you will no doubt sign a release of claims waiver, that forever removes the Fed. Gov. from paying out cash for future BSE related damages (associated with their ineptitude).... Since it is becoming quite obvious that the BSE crisis is going to get hot again.... you are deciding whether you want to maybe get a payout now, or maybe get a payout later....

When Western Canada is "zoned" differently from Eastern Canada... and our animals and meat products are raised under different, more restrictive measures than theirs... the costs of doing business in Western Canada will be a huge burden...

I wish I could dream ... but when I see the measures being taken by our governments to restrict and limit our liberties and personal securities.... I have no faith in them.... I DO have faith in all of you though.

[per]

Conservation easements are a tool that might or might not help. The rights of the mineral holders and the people trump the rights of the surface owner. A CE can help by adding another layer or advocate for the land. The value of a conservation easement is independently assessed and approved by Canada Revenue Agency in order to take advantage of the tax implications and their Ecological Gifts program. It can only be overturned by order of the Minister and that has not happened in Canada. (to the best of my knowledge) There are some very conscientious Land Trusts in Alberta and as a tool to preserve the integrity of the environment they should not be discounted because of the Military case in Colorado.

[per]

It appears I posted the above post in the wrong thread. Sorry

[kato]

Exactly what has been paid out to producer's already? If you mean CAIS, that's an argument that should not hold water. These are two different things, and if the lawyers in this case are willing to accept that they are one and the same, then they need to be replaced.

CAIS was not started with the intention of covering negligence by the government. It's a totally separate risk management tool that was intended to cover financial difficulties brought about by market drops and natural disasters as such. CAIS was not intended as a plan to cover government neglect regarding animal health issues.

Apples and oranges, in my view. If someone stole my car, would the insurance company refuse to pay for it because they paid for body work for an accident last week? Could they say, "Sorry, we've already paid you once on this car, so that means we're off the hook for further damage." No they could not. These are two different issues, and saying we've received money in the past means we don't deserve compensation just doesn't cut it. Not everyone has gotten any money from CAIS, and not everyone is in the program either. Even those in the program can probably all agree that it has not come within a million miles of covering the damages done.

I realize that to accept this deal would seem an acknowledgement that BSE has no other causes than feed transmission. The fact that it acknowledges feed transmission does not necessarily say there is no other means of acquiring this disease. After all, it started somewhere. This is just recognizing that feed is one way to spread it, not that it's the only way it can be acquired.

[rkaiser]

Not sure how you figure that some people would get nothing Kathy. Your points about future claims make sense and each of us needs to remember this when we do receive our cheques and make the decision that will affect the rest of our careers. I appreciate you standing up for your beliefs and it is much better than bad mouthing the class action and still dragging along when the choice was there to opt out.

There will be a pay out. Our choice is to make enough noise now and settle out of court or keep watching our cow herd dwindle until Mr. P and the gang hand out cheques to a bunch of X ranchers who are raising grasshoppers and gophers where there cows used to be and working in Fort McMurray making payments on their homes.