Foraging ability

[grassfarmer]

I saw an interesting thing this morning that I thought I would pass on. Going to feed my cows in a white out with -30C windchill I came on a small bunch of cows that had escaped into the wrong field by stepping over an electric wire probably when the wind started up. Unfortunately they had moved into an area with no shelter and were pretty miserable waiting behind the gate back into their own enclosure. Apart from one cow - a 19 year old Luing who was happily grazing through the snow, totally white up one side from the blizzard. She looked like an old buffalo. Now this is not just a shameless plug for my breed, I really think this is an important point. Apart from having a heavier duty winter coat due to her hair this cow has foraging ability(which I would define as the ability to harvest the maximum amount of forage under all conditions)Many people today don't consider foraging ability - I had this conversation with Alberta Ag people last winter when I pointed out that selecting cattle that are feed efficient by monitoring intake of youngstock on a high grain ration in a feedlot bears little relevance to selecting efficient cows for a forage based system. They didn't agree with me but personally I think they test them the way they do because it's easier. Foraging ability is one of those important traits that gets overlooked by the scientific community because they can't measure or quantify it easily, like the value of longevity.

[cowman]

Just wondering about what makes a cow able to take the weather better than others?
Now I'm reaching back here aways, when my Dad had nothing but horned Herefords? Now these weren't the herfords of today but old style herefords, heavy bones curly heavy coats...not pencil gutted, long legged race horses with slick coats...like most of these polled herefords of today are! Now let me tell you those old cows knew how to hustle! The neighbor had a herd of black cows and it was funny to see them all huddled in a fence corner while those red whitefaced cows were spread out all over the field grazing!
The other thing is this: Herefords have a lot thicker skin than just about any other animal? Any packing house employee will tell you that. I think Angus and Shorthorn had about the thinnest hide with Simmentals not far behind! Pure Chars were not overly thick but those whitefaced buckskins had a fairly thick heavy hide?

[smcgrath76]

I agree quite a bit with what you have said. Capacity and foraging ability is something that is near and dear to our operation.
One exciting thing about some of the feed intake research facilities being built is that they do enable the feeding of bulk feeds (Hay, Silage, Etc.). While not the same as foraging, it does allow some degree of flexibility in testing for Feed Intake/Efficiency.
I think we need to be careful about selecting for Net Feed Intake. In the pig industry, incorrect application led to very efficient pigs that could not eat enough to survive (loss of appetite).

[grassfarmer]

There seem to be two issues at play here - Cowman, you mention the thick skins and hair coats of the Hereford cattle which are obviously important. But these herefords also had the reputation for being foragers, real rustlers for forage - I wonder were the two unconnected? Is there a genetic link between the thicker hided / coated cattle and better foraging ability? Has this foraging ability been lost to most breeders as they have swung their genetics towards grain eating and hand fed cattle?
Looking around the purebred sales and sale catalogs there are more and more beef cattle being turned into dairy cattle. It seems that selecting for ones that respond best to grain feeding is also selecting for taller, narrower, thinner skinned cows out in the pasture.

Sean, I appreciate there is no easy way to test for foraging ability in a Lab. maybe it is one of the situations where we must rely on good old fashioned stockmanship to select the right cattle.

[Rodjam]

I wonder if there are differences within a breed when it comes to foraging just like there is with hair coat. How much of the foraging ability can be learned as well. Cows seem to catch on to those nose pumps by watching others and trying it themselves.

[whiteface]

I just know I'm going to open up a can of worms here.
Or as my father used to say, let all my ants out from under the bowl and then attempt to try and herd them back under.
Utimately, we make what the buyer will pay the most money for. If it happens to swing waay back to forage cattle bringing a higher premium than the ones that gain on feed and create our now coined "eating experience" as opposed to grass fed "deer meat" (sorry grassfarmer, you know I do still respect where you're comeing from) then at that, and only at that time will the magicians appear who will do every study known to man and back will come those fat, soggy, hairy, loose hided, slow gainers (high efficiency and slow gains I think have very high co-relation) and we'll have come full circle. Dollars, I'm sorry will dictate the demand and consequently the resulting cattle. Thanks for reading. Hope you all stay warm and have a great day all!

[grassfarmer]

Thats an interesting point rodjam, I don't know to what extend it is learned behavior and how much is genetically predisposed.

Whiteface, your on the wind up again I assume? Only high gainers can make a great eating experience - not!Holsteins are high gainers on a grain ration, as are the modern hog and poultry you buy in the stores. If you call saturated fat, water and the engrained aromatic flavour of an ILO a great eating experience go for it. Meanwhile for people with tastebuds....

I'd be interested to know how you define the animal that makes a great eating experience within the current grading system? A, AA or AAA?

[grassfarmer]

rodjam, I got my thoughts turned around on that last thread. I think foraging ability probably isn't something that can be learned short term. Building foraging ability within a herd probably requires you to run cattle on a system that requires them to forage aggressively under tough conditions and then cull the ones that can't live with the system. I suppose once you create a breed this way you would still need to be careful that if you reintroduced grain, more hay feeding or easier grazing conditions that less efficient grazers would be retained once again in your herd. Of course most purebred breeders always feed in extravagant ways compared to commercial producers so it isn't surprising most of the cattle they sell aren't foragers - they were selected not to be.

[Horse]

Mabey we should turn this full circle and go back to using horses and then in winter when the horses are not needed they paw the snow and the cows become scavengers after the horses Now I know that is not practable but when everyone is talking of being the lowest cost producer I do believe there is a place its mostly the cost of land that fouls the idea.

[cswilson]

Foraging ability is a very interesting trait-our calves and cows are still running together out bale grazing-but I noticed an interesting thing-we don't move them till they've complained about their lot for a day. There's a dozen or so mares running with them-they always go back to the old paddockl and paw through things and eat. There's all the hay they want for a few days where they are moved too. If it warms up the cows bugger off back into the meadows and pick-in fact I had a little group of five got back in a swamp on me and wintered out a couple years back-they were fat and sassy when we recaptured them. It's funny how those inefficient thick hided foragers raise calves that crack off 3 1/2 to 4 lbs a day on feed and grade well doing it. Grassfarmer you better use the Horned Hereford bull I just leased to Genex and sell me all the heifer calves-they'd be true snowball and promise cows lol. I looked along time to find a bull like him and I finally did. He comes from an outfit that grazes out all winter SE of Drumheller-real solid ranch cattle.

[whiteface]

I'm off beef now...
Can't afford it!!! LOL!! Have no idea anymore what grade translates into the "eating experience." One of the things that definatly pissed me off on my ultimate way out of the entire industry was thinking the grading system was in an extreme sorry state of repair. Sure, grassfarmer, I know where you're comeing from, I can attest to your ideas a lot, maybe if there were more like you there would be an entirely different road map as far as this whole industry is concerned.
But there isn't. Sorry about that too.
Maybe you will educate many and still die broke since your ideas won't be implemented in your lifetime. You could hope for a statue put up in your name but I would say that more people are financially sucessful that give the customer (the majority of them) what they want (even if if it ain't GOOD for them - it's their money they're wasting) rather than trying to re-educate people into buyig whatever it is they have to sell. Been there done that many years. As a purebred breeder, I sell what they ask for, not try to convince them what I have is what they need. Howz that working for me? Well now I sell property instead of cows and eat chicken, not beef! (I'm kidding by the way)
Maybe it ain't working! You keep going grassfarmer, I still read all your posts and respect them!
Have a good day all and thanks for reading!

[cowman]

Whiteface: I actually think guys like grassfarmer and Cswilson...might be the only ones who can survive!
Obviously the system we have in place...isn't working all that well? Just not enough money in it?
When you take about a 40% hit in the price you get for a product(never mind the several years of inflation!) the fact is if you want to survive you've got to drastically reduce costs? That is true in any business...bottom line is gross product has to pay more than costs...or you won't be able to stay in business?
I really don't know how some people continue? Selling small calves in the fall off the cow...getting less and less every year...paying more and more for inputs every year? You have to be innovative and make some changes if you even hope to survive?
I guess for many people the question is...is it worth surviving? The fact is we're all getting older and on just about all farms there are no kids taking over?
Now I'll admit I like cattle! I like feeding them, I like raising them, I like calving them out. I get a real good feeling looking over a pen of good steers or replacement heifers.
I do not like how the profit has shrunk in the last several years! I may not be as radical as some of these guys on here but I do know I'm raising cattle at a fairly low cost compared to many people. The times are a changing!
I remember one time at a bull sale when I was a boy? My family had a bunch of bulls there and while I was wondering through the barns I spotted this really good Shorthorn bull? I went back and told my grandfather about this big good Shorthorn. So he went with me to see him...I'll never forget what he said "Yep, Jackie, he is sure a good bull, but he won't sell for much! He is yesterdays cattle...not todays cattle"! And he was right...he was yesterdays animal?
Now I think if we continue trying to raise "yesterdays cattle" in the market of today...we are bound to fail? It just doesn't work? And maybe in a lot of ways we are going "back to the future"? But bottom line is this:
You have to raise the type of cattle that work in the market we have today!
And I do believe that market is moving back to an animal that will work on grass and slaughter at an older age? I don't think the money is there anymore to feed a lot of expensive grain and own a lot of expensive facilities and equipment? We need to raise them cheaper. Just my opinion.

[grassfarmer]

CS, I look forward to trying that cross but I don't have the females to spare - we are selling two horned bulls to a purebred horned hereford herd who wants to try it. He wants horned "red baldies" with hair coats and foraging ability.

Whiteface,
I'm not looking for any statues but I can tell you I'm not broke now and I won't be when I die - and I won't be changing jobs in my lifetime either.
I am selling something my customers want - both in terms of grassfed beef and in live cattle and earning premiums for both. I will still always attempt to educate people throughout my life - it's what makes the world a better place. Catering only to the lowest denominator, to people with poor education or people who are heading for an early grave due to bad eating habits may have satisfied you - it obviously didn't pay you too well or you wouldn't have quit. By setting your goals at the lowest rung on the ladder - the mass, or commodity, market because it's easy and everybody wants your stuff you limit your potential.

[blackjack]

...until our supply gets in line with the demand ...you guys are spinning your wheels that continue to kid yourselves you have the most low cost efficient pattern on raising cows...it is a margin game and the ones with the larger herds have more connections than the small ones...i think whiteface has realised this... as has many others with the amount of dispersals happening now...has for forageing ability a ranch that has access to cheap straw and couple other ingredients can run a cow as cheap as anyone ...

[cswilson]

Well you can try and change to keep going to keep going or you can whine and cry about the good old days. I think GrassFarmer is a pretty canny old Scot-I hate to rain on whiteface's parade but real estate peddlers get whacked by the economy every now and then. An old rancher who moved up here in the 30's and died with a 7 figure estate told me never underestimate your cows-no matter rain or shine they're out there chewing for you. GrassFarmer you should go over to Ranchers.net and post some pics of your Luings-did I tell you my grandmother actually knew the Cadzow brothers. If I'd quit everytime someone who perceived themselves as smarter told me I was done I never would of got started.