Softwood Lumber

[farmers_son]

Dalek: Good post.

[cowman]

Willowcreek: You seem to have this selective vision? When farmers son points out some things to you, instead of trying to answer honestly, you go off with these outrageous quotes about how Canada has denied you access because "all American cattle are diseased"! And then farmers son tells you like come on...it is a $5 test and no one is banning your cattle at all? Do you respond to that statement...no you fall back on those evil Canadians condemning all our beef! It just doesn't wash? Does R-CALF send you out these little quotes to respond to any legitimate questions?
Neither did you respond to his statement that Canada accepts your cull cows...despite the fact you are a BSE country? The fact you have only had two BSE cows compared to our five, is not a factor here...the science says you should have considerably more...which might be why Japan and Hong Kong have such a problem with American beef? I don't think they believe you? Whether it is shoot, shovel, shut up or "if you don't look, you'll never find" I don't know...but something is sure funny down south of the 49th parellel?

[cowman]

And here that darned Randy Kaiser is an R-CALFER! I always knew he was a little strange! Probably sneaked across the border when no one was looking!

[Willowcreek]

Cowman- Actually you should read Johanns latest press release-- He says the US has no BSE- that the testing program has shown there can't be over 4 to 7 in the whole country--Hell Canada's already found more than that- and at one every few months (?) ...
Don't you trust our Ag Secretary and his science?....

I didn't say anything about the test costs because it doesn't matter the cost ( and it can be quite a bit more with quarantine and vet exams and blood testing)- its the principle...You guys want the border open on the basis of "sound science"- but at the same time "sound science" said that there was no reason for the Canadians to keep their border restrictions on...But you didn't buy that science- So it has to be nothing more than a "trade barrier"...

I have a question for you cowman- Canadians are screaming and blaming all their problems, BSE and all, on R-CALF and Americans--BUT I haven't heard one Canadian out there question the CFIA or their Associations and wonder where all this bad feed is coming from...No one is asking why you are getting cattle born 3 or 4 years after your feed ban-- 2nd and 3rd generation BSE infection?

If I was a Canuck, I'd be sitting on some politicians' doorsteps demanding someone swing from a high tree- but Canadians all sit back and say hush-hush, keep the US border open and we'll be happy....

US producers were not able to stop the OTM opening thru the court- but they did thru the Senate-- and thats what will happen again- especially with all the POST feedban animals showing up- Even NCBA is lobbying to keep the border closed until you drop your trade barrier......

[cowman]

Willowcreek: I can't answer your question about the post feed ban BSE cows because I don't know why that happened? Personally I suspect the whole feed thing is probably not the problem at all and it has more to do with a mineral inbalance...but then what do I know? The experts claim they have it all figured out and I guess you have to go with the best science available at the time? I sicerely doubt there is much difference between the US and Canada feed mills and feed supply?
The important thing to realize is this: We have been testing seriously up here? My local vet says with the amount of cows being tested we can safely say the incident of BSE in Alberta is very rare...very, very rare! Now I don't know about the US or Johanns statement...but you should have more positives than you are getting? And by the way there are rumors out there the Alabama cow might have been born after the feed ban!
Now I'm not sure just what the costs are to ship a fat or feeder calf south is but would bet it is worth a lot more than $5? I won't argue with you that you might have a legitimate grievance over the CFIA not playing by the rules because you just might be right! However driving our producers into bankruptcy as compared to inconveniencing you with a $5 test is hardly comparable?
The fact is the USA has treated us very poorly in this whole thing and it has nothing to do with health safety, but is all about protectionism. We are supposed to have a deal? Its called NAFTA? When the world sees what America has done to Canada in the softwood lumber and cattle, what do you think they think? America welches on its promises. Not good. The world is watching.

[farmers_son]

Cowman: Well said.

[Willowcreek]

cowman-quote--- "but then what do I know? The experts claim they have it all figured out and I guess you have to go with the best science available at the time?"

-----------------------

But those same experts said that according to the best science available that not ALL US Cattle were Diseased-- Science said that Canada should drop its Anaplas/Bluetongue restrictions- but Canada refused to listen to that science.....

You guys can't have it both ways... I, who run cows within spitting distance to Canadian cows, felt aggrieved when Canadians said my cows were ALL DISEASED....

But do I hear any Canadians out asking for their government to drop the artificial trade barrier you put against the States?

Nope- Just open the border so we can shirtail our cattle on the industry the US cattleman built- and we can keep our trade barriers to protect our prices!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[farmers_son]

Just so we are clear. No science said Canada should drop its protocols on bluetongue and anaplasmosis. The science says Canada is bluetongue/anaplas free and the U.S. is not. That does not mean all U.S. cattle are diseased although the U.S. herd does not enjoy the enviable herd health status that the Canadian herd presently enjoys. Canada did allow U.S. feeders in during the winter months for many years which was above and beyond what any science dicatated. However give an American an inch and they will take a yard.

I appreciate you are within spittin distance of our border but until such time as the price differential between Canada and the U.S. is corrected there is zero chance that any U.S. feeders are coming North no matter if the U.S. is required to spend $5 for a blood test during the summer or not.

My sense of the situation is if Canada does remove its bluetongue/anaplas protocol, a protocol that has been effective in keeping Canada free of those disease while Montana allowed its herd to become diseased, that the U.S. will still restrict our access to their market as the real issue is protectionism and they do not really care if they ever send feeders North or not.

[cowman]

Now Willowcreek, I'm not sure how it is now but in the good old days when we sent bulls to Montana they had to be tested for Bangs and TB before they could cross...and yet we were Bangs and TB free? So if America requires that test why shouldn't Canada require a test for a disease you have in your country?
Now we never pouted or whined about doing those tests...we just considered it the cost of doing business?
I also wonder what you American cattlemen did to "build up your market"? Did it amount to nothing more than hauling your calves into the auction mart? Isn't it actually true that the Cargills and Tysons of the world created your market? Or maybe Safeway? Maybe you should be giving them the credit?
Maybe Canada should be setting some of its own "illegal trade barriers"? Like how about for every ten barrels of oil you buy from us you have to take one old cow? Now of course you might not think that was all that good...but you might reconsider when you had to walk to town a few times? LOL

[Willowcreek]

farmersson-- Let me get this straight so I understand where you are coming from...

USDA says because of "sound science" cattle from the BSE infected country of Canada should be allowed imported into the US-- And you agree with that science

BUT

Then USDA says that "sound science" shows that cattle from 38 US states should be allowed into Canada, unrestricted and freely without testing or time limits--But you Canadians don't buy that science...

What a joke........

[farmers_son]

International trade rules are guided by the Office International des Epizooties (OIE), the World Trade Organization, the Sanitary Phytosanitary Agreement, technical barriers to trade, risk assessment, and the Precautionary Prinicple (WTO SPS Agtreement). Just like the U.S. ignored NAFTA and insisted on a special deal with softwood lumber they are doing the same with Canadian cattle producers. The rules do not apply to the U.S.

The International Review Panel that investigated the first case of BSE in the U.S. clearly set out that the U.S. was to view BSE as a North American problem. I would think that most fair minded people would say that report was sound science. Yet the U.S. still unfairly blocks or restricts trade in our live cattle even though they have since admitted to having their own domestic cases of BSE.

The U.S. routinely blocks imports of cattle from countries that have Bluetongue even though they have bluetongue as well. At some point Canadian producers need to understand that the same will happen to us as soon as our herd is infected with Bluetongue; even if that infection came from the United States. The goal is to stop or restrict all trade in live cattle coming into the U.S. from Canada while still allowing their live cattle access to our market. We are not far from that situation today. It is managed trade, managed trade in favour of the U.S.

I am not aware that the USDA has made any statements regarding Canada not keeping our country free of Bluetongue or Anaplasmosis. I think no scientist would say that Canada should import these diseases into our country. The pressure is political, not science based.

Canada allows open and unrestricted access to U.S. cows destined for slaughter with open trade for cow beef while the U.S. does not allow either our cows or cow beef any access into their market. Canada allows open and unrestricted access to our markets for U.S. feeders during the winter months and year round access without restriction of any kind with a $5 blood test. The U.S. has a 500 page document outlining restrictions on our feeders going south including brands, dentition, preg checking, sealed containers, terminal feedlots. That is just how it is, those are facts plain and simple. Whether it is softwood lumber or cattle NAFTA has not worked to allow Canada to trade on a fair basis with the United States.

[Willowcreek]

farmersson quote: "Whether it is softwood lumber or cattle NAFTA has not worked to allow Canada to trade on a fair basis with the United States."

farmersson--That is one statement I will agree with you on-- NAFTA has never been fair trade and should be scrapped...After the Mexican rebellion that is taking place in our country and this falls elections, I think that this will become more of a possibility...

[farmers_son]

NAFTA has already been scrapped, only the name remains. I think that is what this thread is all about. You still have unfettered access to our markets plus our oil and gas while we have managed, limited and restricted trade into U.S. markets. Go figure...

I will leave the readers to ponder this...what would have happened if the U.S. had the case of BSE a few months before Canada instead of the other way around? Timing is everything in war and politics. It also helps to be big and have bombs.

[Willowcreek]

NAFTA started dying long before BSE--Remember Canada NEVER has opened their border completely to US cattle, telling the US that ALL US CATTLE ARE DISEASED...

The protection battles started before the ink was dry on the document--US cattle not restricted in going north-US chemical companies got special rules to ban cheaper Canadian chemicals and weed sprays- US pharmaceutical companies got legislation banning cheaper Canadian and Mexican prescription drugs claiming that they were "unsafe" (altho most were all made in the same factories) - Canadian companys are trying to ban cheaper US cattle insecticide (generic Ivomec)....Wheat, lumber, corn, dairy products, etc. etc.- every special interest group has tore another page out of the agreement....

Hopefully it will soon all go and NAFTA can rest in peace.....

[cowman]

It is unfortunate that special interest groups have sabotaged what should have been the best trade deal in the world? In my opinion it has not been helpful for the common man in Canada or the USA?
Why should a bottle of pills be twice as expensive in the USA as it is in Canada? Or the other way with a jug of Ivomec? Who wins? Not the Canadian cattleman or the American needing affordable drugs...but some fat cat company...lobbying hard to create an artificial trade barrier!
When you have two countries like ours there is no real reason to not harmonize the market? Get all the petty grievances out of the way, get the governments to step back, and then watch the prosperity be created by a true free market!