Consider this?

[cowman]

About ten years ago a neighbor decided he was sick of working like a dog, owing the banks, spending all his spare cash on machinery. He decided to sell some of his land, get rid of his cattle, have a farm sale, and try something else. He didn't leave farming broke or anything like that.
He bought a couple of small businesses and with a lot of hard work by both himself and his wife grew them into very succesful businesses! The other day I dropped in to talk to him and I asked him if he ever regretted his decision. He told me how could he?
They recently built a big house in a nearby subdivision, he drives a new Caddie SUV and they leave on a month long cruise in February! His son is now involved in the businesses so him and his wife have some time to play and enjoy life. He still owns a couple of quarters that he rents out. He thinks if he stayed farming he would probably be working harder and have less money than when he quit! His son would probably be long gone.
The point is if agriculture doesn't work for you that doesn't mean your life is over. There are a lot of businesses/jobs out there that can pay pretty darned good if you apply yourself.

[wmoebis]

Your right,it is all in the way you look at it when you leave the farm. If you leave as a management decision it is a whole lot easier than being forced off.

[wmoebis]

or waking up some morning to realize that you are in your late sixties and haven't had the money or time to see anything but the view from the seat of the combine or tractor, or if you are in the cattle business your TRAVELLING has been limited to the local auction barn !

[Pulseman]

Hello Cowman and others,

Very good discussion point and this thougth runs in most of our heads. My situation is about at this fork in the road.

Just to explain: I learned farming when I started walking, only son, with a grandfather that was a farmer to his bones, was able to by land from 1920 to 1950. My father was farmer against his will because he wanted to go into forest managment but could not study because he was 12 years in the army (1937-49). I started farming in 1977, bought my own farm in 1981 at very high prices and was unable to by land since. 1984 I started a processing company with my wife. Today we run two facilities, plus farm about 1900 acres, about 4/5 rented, but I see problems in the farming section to make money, even so that lots of our production is processed in house and exported. I have three boys, where it would be custom for 500 and more years in my family that one (most of times the oldest) becomes a farmer, but I have problems even suggesting this and putting a bad spell on one of them. But who will farm the farms if everone goes to town, the oilpatch etc.? My advise to my kids: college and/or university, learn a trade that can make you good money and gives you skills that can be used in the farm if one decides to come in with me in 10 or 15 years.

[cakadu]

Hi Pulseman. Good to always see new posters. Welcome. You have hit the nail right on the head in terms of having the kids learn other skills, particularly skilled trades. In the coming years, we are going to see many baby boomers retiring, so skilled labour is going to be in even greater demand than it is now. There is a gradual shift towards lean manufacturing, meaning that you use advances in manufacturing to make up for the shortfall in labour and also boost productivity. We don't have anywhere near the skilled labour that we need. People who can run more specialized machinery and equipment are going to be in even greater demand than they are now. Learning how to do these things is going to be very rewarding for young people.

For many years we've pushed for university educations and before I get lambasted there is nothing wrong with getting that type of education. We are seeing an even stronger push for more trades and skilled trades and this is where young people could be guided.

From an entrepreneurial standpoint, running the farm and having a side fabrication business could be a fairly significant and sustainable venture. After all, producers of all sorts have been doing "applied research" from a mechanical standpoint for many years. Why not turn it into something that becomes more lucrative and diversifies the farm?

[cakadu]

Depending on the area of Alberta where one farms, having a side business on the farm can be very lucrative. In the oil patch for instance, many farmers and their sons are also welders. Having a mobile welding unit and the time to work off the farm in the winter before calving etc., can certainly bring in some very handy extra dollars.
Some of the younger generation in this area have taken Ag Mechanics at Olds and have, with Dad's help set up shop at the farm to work on other farmers tractors etc.
The lack of skilled trades personnel is very evident at this point with the economy booming, but working off the farm is more difficult for a livestock producer with animals to feed and care for during the winter when the resource industries are going full steam.

Having said all the above, I realize there are only so many hours in a day and farming does take up many of them. The saddest thing I see is farmers trying to do two full time jobs, one off the farm and the other at home....it burns a person out pretty fast and certainly doesn't leave any time for family etc.

[cowman]

I think you are all correct about the need for skilled labor and the importance of not pushing anybody into doing something they are not interested in.
In my own case I never asked my son to come home to the farm or to participate in my business. I encouraged him to get an education even though I consider it largely a waste of time and money today! Came home with a degree in business...and then his real education started! Now I'm no business guru or something but some of the crap they taught him...well you know what they say...them that can, do...them that can't, teach!
The most important thing you will ever know in business is "one hand washes the other" and "its who you know, not what you know"! And that is the truth!
I do believe he would have spent his time better if he got into a useful trade, but then you can always buy what you can't do yourself? I think any farmer needs to be a fairly competent welder, mechanic, carpenter, electrician, plumber? Well maybe you don't but it sure saves a lot of money?
But the bottom line is you need a good work ethic, be willing to take risks, have common sense and have the ability to make a decision? That works in just about any business?

[farmers_son]

I think we are far too willing to work off farm and accept poor returns from the farm. No one in the oil patch has to work two jobs to make ends meet.

I would put out the opinion that the prosperity in the oil patch that is creating all those jobs is a direct result of various government policies, both here in Canada and internationally, that create a transfer of wealth to the energy sector. I would also suggest that the need to work off farm is a direct result of various government policies, both here in Canada and internationally that have caused a transfer of wealth out of the primary ag producers hands.

There are sure to be those that say our low net farm returns are determined by supply and demand. Not so. No one is dumping food in the ocean because there is more than people can eat.

Energy prices are not strong because of supply and demand. I say a market analyst on TV recently say that energy prices are rising in the face of one of the mildest winters on record. He opined that energy costs are rising again because of the U.S. pressuring Iran over its nuclear ambitions. In any event, there is gas at the pumps, no hurricanes in the Gulf region, certainly lots of production here in Alberta and prices continue to rise. Given the impact OPEC, a cartel, has on oil prices it is nonsense to suggest that oil and gas prices are a result of natural supply and demand market forces.

Farm gate prices are not a result of supply and demand either. Take the loss of the Crow Rate for instance. That single policy change accounts for what is basically nothing less than abject poverty in this country's grain growing regions far more than any supply and demand change. If anyone wants to believe that supply and demand dictate grain prices they have only to consider the U.S. farm bill and the loan guarantees that drive the grain industry in the United States, which is the worlds largest grain exporting country.

Beef producers in this country should have had their eyes opened to the role government plays in the beef sector since BSE. The ability to export, the control of the industry by the packers, the interpretation and application of science have far, far more impact on farm gate prices than supply and demand. Or at least in the Canada’s case supply and demand were disconnected by a monopoly situation created by artificial government imposed trade barriers. In any event the marketplace was not working and it was not working because of government, in that case the U.S. government.

If farmers are leaving the land, if farmers are working two jobs, it is a reflection of government policies that may not outright dictate that result but slowly and surely herd the agricultural industry in that direction. Now someone is going to bring up the notion of a cheap food policy. I have never been too sure about that but there should be absolutely no doubt in anyone’s mind that there is a “fewer farmer” policy in this country.

[cowman]

I would agree there is a "fewer farmers" policy. HMMM...what party has been mainly in power while all that was going on? I doubt though that a Conservative government would have done much different. The power behind the government has basically made that decision?
It is a tight balancing act? Squeezing the peasants until they squeak has always been tough? Luckily there are always dumb peasants around who will live in poverty!
Whats a peasant to do? Well you have to eat, right? You do what you have to do to survive?
The smarter peasants could read the writing on the wall and got their offspring an education and a way out. A few of them even packed it in and went to town and stopped being exploited peasants! Us dumb ones are still here.

[cowman]

farmers_son, you may be correct in the assumtion that no-one in the oil patch needs to work at two jobs to make ends me, but I can assure you that the hours of work and working conditions would sometimes make folks think they had worked at two jobs.
For instance, if you spend the winter up at Red Earth Creek living in a camphotel, eating in shifts and only get home once every month or so, its not what most farmers would consider ideal conditions, particularly if they have a family.
I don't deny that the people working in those jobs are there because they want to be, but lets not kid ourselves into thinking that the dollars earned in the oil patch are easy dollars.

Driving tank truck in -5, trying to keep hoses from freezing and stay on icy lease roads miles away from civilization isn't a piece of cake either.

I realize that calving cows in the same weather isn't great either because I have been there and done that. I do think that the opportunity for off farm employment in the petroleum and construction industries has allowed farmers to help keep their debt load under control on the farm.

My son is a consultant with an oil company, his role is to look after the completions done by service rigs. Most of the crew he works with are Sask. farm boys and men that work the rigs for the winter to help keep things afloat on their farms.

[cowman]

sorry, the second sentence should read 'make ends meet'

[farmers_son]

Cowman: The handwriting does not have to be on the wall. Change is possible but first people have to get by the notion that there is nothing they can do. Supply and demand is not the determining factor in the farm situation anymore, either in Canada or that bastion of "free enterprise" the United States.

Emarld1: I work long hours on the farm and there are times of the year I hardly see my family. I may be home but it is not 9 to 5. Plus the family is pressed into service just to get the job done. I work every bit as hard on the farm as if I worked in the oil patch. In fact if I was in the oil patch I would have an office job and a management position. I know that for a fact.

I did not say the oil patch was easy money. But no one in the oil patch is having to farm after hours because their oil patch job would not keep the wolf from the door. Both oil and agriculture are important primary resource sector drivers of the economy. It is unacceptable that a person cannot make a living farming. We have been way too accepting of low farm incomes.

[farmers_son]

farmers_son, the one difference between you working long hours on the farm and not having much family time, and the oil patch worker doing the same is that many of the oil field workers are hundreds of miles away from home, they don't get to see family for weeks on end where I am sure you at least get to say hello in passing during your working day on the farm !

Office jobs in the oil patch aren't always that attractive, in fact, some of the higher stress jobs are in office jobs in the energy sector !!! At least in a farming situation we all know what is going to give us stress from day to day or year to year: Low commodity prices, weather, machinery breakdowns etc. In the energy sector we could have one boss in the morning and find the company sold and a whole new company philosophy by nightfall !!!

I agree we have been content with low returns in agriculture, but there are those that are making a good living at it, and seem to flourish, so is it because they work harder, produce a better product or just happen to be in the right place at the right time with a product the buyer wants ?

[farmers_son]

Could be their apparent affluence has more to do with having less debt and living off equity. I am curious…how many farmers can we loose before it is a problem, assuming we are not there yet. Would it be a problem if in another 10 years half the farmers are gone? Two thirds of the farmers gone? Although you may not see it along the Hiway 2 corridor, in a lot of the province rural depopulation is a big problem. Or does anyone really care if anyone lives out in the hinterlands? I heard or read somewhere that the Alberta government has studies in their hands that suggest within a generation there will be only 30 communities in the province. Maybe that is just fine. Cheaper that way.

The loss of farmers and rural depopulation is not happenstance. It is planned, it is accepted and it is the result of government policy but it can be stopped if the will is there.

[farmers_son]

I live an less than five minutes from Highway 22 but am over an hour from Highway 2 farmers_son.
Land in this area isn't worth anywhere near what land is worth along the Hwy 2 corridor, or east and west of either Edmonton or Calgary for that matter. I think that lower debt load and equity pay a large part in whether farmers can afford to remain in business, but with the lower debt or having debt retired completely comes the likely fact that the farmers in that position aren't spring chickens anymore and may be close to retirement.
Its a tough business and certainly cannot be considered a lifestyle anymore, lifestyle doesn't keep the wolf from the door !