• You will need to login or register before you can post a message. If you already have an Agriville account login by clicking the login icon on the top right corner of the page. If you are a new user you will need to Register.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Getting religion

Collapse
X
Collapse
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Getting religion

    Getting religion

    Monday, 27 June 2005
    Ted Byfield


    To contend that Canada is involved in a religious war might seem a trifle excessive, but something like that is certainly going on. This, anyway, is the implication of the first poll to emerge after last month's parliamentary extravaganza.

    A poll conducted by Leger Marketing put Paul Martin's Liberals back on top by a healthy 11 percentage points--38 per cent against, 27 per cent for Steve Harper's Conservatives. This, despite disclosures that the federal Liberal party in Quebec is corrupt to the core, despite Martin's surrender of his budget to the NDP, despite dithering uncertainty on almost every major issue.

    To the voters, claims the poll, none of these flaws matter anything like as much as the Tory position on "social issues." They're what count. Would a new Conservative leader make any difference? No, the pollsters find, none whatever. The voters have no misgivings about the Conservative leadership. Their quarrel is with the party. They do not trust what it might do in the "social" sphere.

    The term "social issues" is, let's face it, a euphemism. People shrink from calling them what they are, namely religious issues. Behind the euphemism stand things like the acceptability of abortion, the ancient legal safeguards for the "traditional family," the right of parents to decide what their children will be taught, the right of parents to physically discipline their children, what kind of views may be publicly expressed.

    The list keeps growing, and the reason is not mysterious. This country was founded on the assumption that Canadians were wholly united on such things. Our moral values were derived from the Jews and spread across most of the world by the Christians. They were rooted in the premise that there is a God, that God is "good," and good is what the law and the prophets said it is. So where's the "issue"?

    There wasn't one until about 250 years ago--some would say 500 years ago--when some voices began to question the whole premise. Is there really a God? Do we really have any basis for knowing what's "good"? Such questions very easily become political. The purpose of legislatures is to pass laws. All laws impose some kind of moral principle. So when we become divided on the origins and authority of moral principles, we become divided politically. And if the history of the past 250 years has taught us anything, it's that this kind of religious division can become very nasty indeed.

    It gets particularly dangerous if the division becomes geographical as well as theological--that is, if one part of a country thinks one way, and another the opposite way. This is precisely what the Leger poll is telling us.

    For when the pollsters say that what's in doubt is not the leader but the party, they are talking geography. The "party," as we are repeatedly reminded, is essentially "western" Canadian, and what is usually portrayed as its doleful Christian influence is western-centred.

    The conflict, in other words, apart from being one of agnostic versus religious, is also one of East versus West. To obscure this reality, the primary voice of the agnostic side, The Globe and Mail, persistently describes the split as urban versus rural, a thesis that requires classifying the whole of Calgary, most of Edmonton and the entire British Columbia Lower Mainland outside the Vancouver core as "rural." There is an innuendo here. To The Globe, "rural" implies backward, unintelligent, bigoted, out of touch with modern reality. "Urban" means informed, wise, tolerant, "inclusive."

    However, as one of their own columnists noted with alarm last month, each of the past four Conservative candidates named in Vancouver's immediate suburbs had highly profiled "Christian" credentials. As usual, his observation carried the implicit admonishment: the Tories will never get elected if they keep packing the party with these "social conservatives."

    He does not understand, of course, the way these disgusting religious people think. If the Conservative party can only get elected by becoming in effect another Liberal party, intent upon indoctrinating their children to accept values and lifestyles their parents believe repulsive, they will not only--once again--set up a new party. They will also consider setting up a new country.

    #2
    Until Ontario voters actually take the time to learn what the REAL policies of the parties are, they will just blindly keep voting the way their parents did.

    None of the people I know from Ontario can tell me what the conservatives stand for, what the NDP stand for, or even the Liberals. All the can say is that the conservatives would make Abortion illegal and that they are all crooked so why vote for anyone different. I even had one person tell me that they thought that they didn't mind the amount of taxes they paid because they were getting good social programs for their cash.

    I am losing hope that things might change some day.

    Comment


      #3
      In case anyone hasn't figured it out yet, for the Conservative party to succeed, they have to become the Liberals! In other words, they need to become Ontario based, with Ontario beliefs, and they have to believe Ontario(more specifically the golden triangle) has a devine right to rule the country!
      Nothing else is acceptable.PERIOD!
      The day is fast approaching when even the dumbest Albertans need to realize we will never be able to persuade the rest of Canada to our way of thinking?
      I sincerely hope the Liberals continue to rule with their brand of corruption and outright theft! I hope they attempt another money grab that ruins our economy here(again)! Then hopefully all the dumbies waving their little maple leaf flags while they swill their Molson Canadian, will finally figure it out?
      The only solution is a revolution!

      Comment


        #4
        Cowman is right on. without some sort of revolution this country will continue to slip into anarchy. paul martin smiles into the tv and says all the world will want Canadian style moral government. what has that jackass been smoking? I want a divorce from Sodom and Gamorrah, I mean ottawa and toronno.

        Comment


          #5
          Cowman...how much does Tyson and Cargil donate to the Liberal party of Canada??

          Comment


            #6
            Cowman: You said “we will never be able to persuade the rest of Canada to our way of thinking.” I do not think it is the role of political parties to tell you or persuade anyone how to think.

            You say you want a revolution. OK, a revolution to what? Are you advocating a dictatorship? A military coup perhaps. Or a theocracy since you are talking about religion and politics? Totalitarianism might be right up your alley.

            It is not Canadians fault that the Conservatives platform does not appeal to the majority. Actually it is a misconception that Ontario rules the country. In Canada the voters rule the country.

            A revolution might be interesting if it meant getting rid of the provinces and instead just have one federal state. That way Ontario or Quebec could never rule, only Canada would rule. It would not change the party in power since federal representation is not determined in any way on a provincial basis but at least there would be one less thing to bitch about.

            This thing about Ontario or Quebec has no basis in fact, our federal representatives are elected on the basis of winning the most votes on a local riding basis, has nothing to do with provinces. Party affiliation is almost a side issue because as we have seen the MP once elected can change their party or sit as an independent at will.

            How about this for a suggestion. We redistribute all those federal ridings that touch provincial borders (assuming we do not get rid of the provinces) so that those ridings are in both provinces. Those ridings would no longer be Ontario ridings or Alberta ridings they would be federal ridings. Again would not change the party in power but no could blame Ontario.

            If the Conservatives were in power would you wave a Canadian flag then?

            Comment


              #7
              farmers_son, I think the frustration cowman voices is shared by many in western Canada, particularly in Alberta. This province sends billions per year to Ottawa, and sees it spent on Ad Scam, Gomery inquiry and same sex marriage legislation. If the Liberal government really did want to represent Canada it would be a different matter, but the obvious catering to Ontario and Quebec is what has alienated the west and this past session of parliament has certainly fueled the fires of western separation in my view.

              The obvious corruption is an embarassment or should be an embarassment to all Canadians.

              Comment


                #8
                Its funny that the alternatives to the government we have now doesn't include democracy f_s. I wonder how many of us, including Ontario would have voted for changing the definition of marriage. Were those politicians who voted for the bill elected for their stand on gay marriage? Most definately not...And yet that was rammed through. Why, I wonder? Was it a diversion to get the focus on conservative morals, rather than on Liberal corruption?

                Since it looks we will again give the Libs a licence to govern until they get caught in their next scandal, what legislation will they ram through at that time to divert attention? They've gone about as far as they can go with the radical "Gay agenda", or have they? What other issue can they wrap in the flag and force on us without the consultation of the people it will affect most, namely us Canadians.

                Yes, I am glad to be living in this country, the history and people that built it provide a proud heritage. The fly in the ointment is the opportunistic bunch who are running it lately, keeping us from being the truly great country we could be.

                Comment


                  #9
                  The challenge is not to force Albertans to change their views to be like Ontario but for a national party to adopt policies that reflect the wishes and desires of the majority of Canadians. The Conservatives have not met that challenge.

                  It was the Progressive Conservatives under Diefenbaker that introduced the Charter of Rights. The present charter guarantees that all people enjoy the fundamental freedom of religion, freedom of thought, freedom of expression and freedom of the press, peaceful assembly, and freedom of association subject to the reasonable limitations clause (section 1) and the notwithstanding clause. Do we disavow these principles over an issue that affects so few people like gay marriage?

                  The press feed upon issues like gay marriage and portray it in terms of provincial lines. They do this for ratings. I am sure there are gay people in all the provinces. However people in all provinces would not accept corruption if it is shown to exist. Canadian voters will have their chance to make their opinions known this December/January when the Gomery report is made public. I guess western separatists would find fault with the federal government doing what it took to keep Quebec from separating although that view may not be widely held by most Canadians.

                  The reality is the Liberals and NDP are the only two parties that have a national plan and could appeal to voters from coast to coast. Until that changes regional parties like the Conservatives and the Bloc are what keeps the Liberals in power. Until the Conservatives adopt policies and have leadership in place that appeals to a broad section of Canadians they are destined to be in second place.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The saddest thing in my opinion is that Ontario will vote again for Liberals even though they have seen evidence of their corruption. I don't really think that says much for the moral fibre of voters in Ontario.
                    In our county the public took control and forced an inquiry into the conduct of some elected officials and when the results showed that they had been acting in a questionable manner the public voted them out with a bang !!!!
                    If the Conservatives have a vision for all of Canada, they are never going to be able to make it public anyway because the eastern media is so slanted toward Liberals that no matter what Harper says it will be misconstrued.
                    I would like to know what the Liberal/NDP plan for all Canada is. If the NDP have their way it will be spending billions on social issues that turn the entire country into a government dependent state.
                    Anyone that has the initiative to work and get ahead will be penalized under that scenario.

                    I have not heard one peep from Layton about agriculture, obviously riding his bike in a gay pride parade takes precidence over real issues that affect a large group rural Canadians.

                    I honestly don't know what drives politicians these days, during the recent floods in Calgary, Bronconnier was front and centre, out with the city crews, speaking to Calgarians at every opportunity, and to the north, Mandel was out marching with Michael Phair in the gay pride parade, then a few days later was lambasting the government for not promoting Edmonton !!!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      How does gay marriage reflect the wishes of Canadians. Polls suggest that if it was put to a national referendum, it would have been voted down. The Liberals are no better at reflecting the wishes of Canadians than the Conservatives. They do have a lot better PR though, thanks to the left wing media coverage we are "enlightened" with in this country.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        With all due respect f_s, nobody needs to "wait" for the results of the Gomery inquiry. All the testimony is available to the public. Everyone is free to read it and make up their own judgement rather than waiting to hear how CBC/CTV/Global choose to spin their sound bites.

                        It reminds me of the immigration probe that just wrapped up. The report actually called for Judy Scrow? to resign, but nobody reported that and like everything else, they just ignored it and went on vacation.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I personally doubt if Martin will call an election when the Gomery inquiry results are made public. Just because he has promised it, doesn't necessarily mean he will honor his promise !!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            It is true that the testimony before Justice Gomery is available on the Internet at:
                            http://www.gomery.ca/en/rulingonstanding20040705/

                            I think we need to keep in mind that this testimony is often contradictory and some of it will be found to be outright lies. Justice Gomery will have the responsibility to determine what is truth and what is fiction. That is why I am withholding my judgment until his report is issued.

                            I am sure gay marriage would be voted down if it came to a referendum. But how do you uphold the Charter of Rights and Freedoms when the Courts have said that banning gay marriage is against their charter rights and apparently using the not withstanding clause is not an option? I personally like Klein’s suggestion that the provinces should not be in the business of marrying people and leave it to the churches to perform marriages. Government does not belong in the bedrooms of this country.

                            Emrald1: If you want to take issue with the way Ontario people vote in terms of their provincial leaders you could do so but it may be none of your business as an Albertan. However I am concerned that viewing federal politics in terms of which province voted which way is contrary to nation building. If we are to be a nation of one people united under one federal government then we need to accept the majority decision. When you say things like Ontario will vote for the Liberals it is stereotyping. It is no different than saying the blacks voted the government in or the gays voted the government in or big business or labour voted the government in and so on. The people of this country will vote the government in as long as you believe our voting system is fair and honest. Whether those people live in Ontario or Quebec or Alberta they are Canadians and in a democratic country the majority form the government. A Canadian is a Canadian no matter what province they live in or what other demographic you might want to look at and they are entitled to vote for who they want.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I don't know where you got the imprssion that I give a damn how citizens of Ontario vote provincially, its how they vote federally that affects me !!! Until the entire electoral system is changed our votes out west don't really count, so how Ontario votes certainly is my business !
                              I agree with Ralph on the marriage issue and also agree that the state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation but lately it seems as though folks of a certain pursuasion have felt the need to flaunt their bedroom activites in the face of the nation. Hopefully, now they will all marry and live happliy everafter.,

                              Comment

                              • Reply to this Thread
                              • Return to Topic List
                              Working...