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Jun 27, 2005 | 05:06 1 Apparently all fuel prices are on the rise. On the news last night they said gasoline took a 15 cent a liter jump yesterday in Vancouver! Of course this translates into more than just what it costs to fill up the car, as just about everything you buy will have to go up to pay for the added transportation costs! Most companies can just pass the cost down the line to the consumer...unfortunately it doesn't work that way for farmers.
Some people will complain about fuel prices and try to economize as much as possible but in reality most won't! They will just consider it the cost of living and go about their way of buying big gas guzzlers and driving as much as ever...and yet will belly ache like hell if bread rises a couple of cents a loaf!
The oil and gas business is doing extremely well. There is a major push to go back and reopen old wells that were shut in because they were uneconomical. On top of that the extensive pipeline systems being built for unconventional gas gives borderline production wells an opportunity to be exploited.
Unfortunately most of this added gas production goes south to fuel the Americans...as well as most of the profits! Reply With Quote
Jun 27, 2005 | 05:24 2 cowman, farmers, seniors on fixed incomes and lower income families and individuals are having a tough time just getting by.
Increased power costs, fuel costs and just about all necessities are increasing all the time.
You are entirely correct when you say that the costs will be and are being passed down to the consumer, with the exception of farmers who cannot pass their costs down ! Reply With Quote
Jun 27, 2005 | 07:23 3 Well I guess its time for all you Albertans to unstuff those socks under your beds and start spending your Surface Rights and Lease monies that these oil companies are paying you. When y'all come east to SK and MB you drive on our roads at 115 kph, and I'm tired of getting the bird when they have to pass us (doing the limit) with their heavy SUV, and 1T duallies.

Wake up and smell the H2S, thats whats running your province. Reply With Quote
Jun 27, 2005 | 08:17 4 In some instances surface lease income has kept farms going over the past two years. Not much of it left in the sock under the matress !!! Reply With Quote
Jun 27, 2005 | 10:07 5 Prices are getting up but you still enjoy a cheap fuel policy in Canada.
Current UK prices equate to $1.93/ litre for gas, $2.00/ litre for regular diesel and $1.00/litre for red (ag) diesel.
Only this last category gives farmers a reduction and it is strictly limited to farm tractors.
It's time North America woke up and realised the damage they are doing to the earth with their ridiculous fuel wasting practises. Reply With Quote
Jun 27, 2005 | 10:20 6 Amen to that grassfarmer. I actually had a land agent tell me that all of this oil and gas exploration was being done for my benefit and because of my demands. I couldn't believe that she had the nerve to tell me that. I cannot and will not ever be able to justify one of those SUV's - first and foremost because of the cost of one of them. There is something that just doesn't sit right with me with respect to paying $40K, 50K or even more for a vehicle. You get the same view of the road no matter how much you pay.

Many of the people that own these SUV's wouldn't drive them in conditions that require having them anyway. How many people that own them even leave the city, let alone go out to 4x4 or get them muddy? (The damage they are causing while in the West country etc. is another matter entirely and should be discussed in another thread.) There is one fellow in particular that I know of that drives a Hummer in Red Deer and the last thing it would see it driving out of the city - it is all for status and nothing more.

There are trade-offs with a smaller, more fuel economy car and I struggle with those, but it seems that the fuel economy is going to win out - there just doesn't seem to be any real alternative.

What concerns me most is that we are taking no long-term view to what we are doing - it is ALL for short-term gain. Reply With Quote
Jun 27, 2005 | 11:43 7 Right on Cakadu!

There are so many people in the oil industry taking advantage to the high oil prices to exploit the wealth of the land. There is NO long term planning anywhere that I can see.

Out east here, its sounding more and more difficult for business to find employees because of the ridiculus salaries that the oil patch is claiming to offer. Like really..... why is a kid out of highschool worth $12 or much more to do manual labour? Farmers certainly can't afford to keep their own kids home to help anymore.

I really wonder what Mr Klien would do if the oil industry ground to a halt like it has so many times in the past? There will be lots of young people trying hard to live like they did when they are on the dole......

As far as world prices go........ isn't most of the difference between us, the USA and the UK simply a difference in the taxes? Reply With Quote
Jun 27, 2005 | 11:56 8 I believe the UK taxes are 70% on gas, around 50% on diesel and only around 6% on farm diesel. I don't know how that compares with other countries. Reply With Quote
Jun 27, 2005 | 17:18 9 I do own a fairly large SUV. I drove many miles this past winter with it in 4WD. I plowed snow up past the running boards on the county road on more than one occasion. I don't like the fact that it uses more petrol than my former vehicle but I do like the security that having a vehicle that can cope with any kind of Alberta winter driving provides.
How much fuel a vehicle uses is dependent on the way it is driven. I am willing to bet that a lot of the smaller type cars that pull up beside me at stop lights and burn rubber when the light turns green use more fuel than I do.

There are a lot of pickups on the road that cost as much or more than a SUV, and fuel consumption is likely about the same unless they are a diesel. Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 05:41 10 Well the oil and gas business is just like any other. There is a buyer and a seller and no one forces you to buy it! I can view highway #2 out my window and the traffic is almost continuous!
I suspect Canadas tax structure is close to the UK...maybe a bit less?
I also suspect people in the UK don't have to contend with the distances we have here? Or the cold weather?
Is oil too high? Well in 1974 I bought a brand new chevy pickup for $3656 and gas at 45 cents a GALLON, or 10 cents a liter! If gas is 90 cents a liter today then I should be able to buy a new pickup for $32,904...which is probably about right(cheap pickup)?
However in 1974 we sold 600 lb. calves for 48 cents...so we should be getting $4.32/lb. if they had moved in tandem with pickups and gas! Now if I was getting $4.32/lb. I might just be smiling?...as a side note we sold barley for around $2.60/bushel in 74...equals $23 today!
...and we wonder why agriculture is shaky? Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 06:49 11 I agree cowman, and nobody should feel they have the right to judge others for the vehicle they choose to drive, the house they choose to live in and heat.
I haven't heard any criticism of two or three family vehicles and huge RV's which are a luxury and use one heck of a lot more fuel than my SUV.
The owner of the vehicles and houses in question pays the shots to heat and fuel them.
Many people are doing their part to make changes to older homes to conserve energy, but it is a costly process. Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 07:15 12 You don't need to take any extraordinary measures against SUVs. The marketplace will eventually -drive- them off the roads if they start being prohibitively expensive to operate. (pardon the pun!)

We don't need agreements like Kyoto to do what the marketplace will take care of. Making fuel prices artificially high in a few Kyoto following countries just makes it less expensive for countries like China to belch out the same fuel we would have burned in the interim. They already have the edge in labor costs, why make it easier for them to buy fuel too? Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 08:29 13 I agree that the cost of driving any vehicle has to be weighed against the need to own that particular type of transportation.
Replacement cost of an SUV is comparable to a higher end car with the exeption of luxury cars so I don't forsee replacement cost of SUV's being the deciding factor in owning one. Fuel usage is another issue. Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 10:47 14 Emrald, you have explained in other posts your choice to drive what you do and it is because you are on the road so much of the time. FarmRanger is right - eventually people will get sick of having to put in $100 worth of fuel and have it used up in just a few days. (Remember when with most vehicles there was no way you could even put $40 in????)

For many of the people that drive these so called luxury vehicles it is a matter of status and for show as many of them will never leave the city let alone drive out on the highway. I can't imagine what the fuel consumption must be in the city with these things. The insurance costs on them would be through the roof as well and I just can't imagine paying all that money.

China is now on an upward curve in terms of it's fuel consumption and for the first time is a net importer of oil. What is going to happen when these "developing" countries have their oil and gas demands go up?

The bottom line still remains that we are diminishing a non-renewable resource at an increasing pace, with very limited options for the future in terms of fuel sources. Not to mention what we are doing or going to be doing to the environment along the way. Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 11:56 15 Again, insurance is based not only on the vehicle but the driving record. I have a clean licence which makes my insurance affordable even on an SUV. I do not consider my vehicle a luxury vehicle even though it is a big SUV. I opted for some of the features but not all the bells and whistles of a luxury vehicle.

There are many things we do that use up a renewable resource. Wasting energy heating water for hour long showers, washing a handful of clothes, and drying them in a dryer for starters.


We can all do our part and we can all likely do a lot more to conserve energy and fossil fuels... Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 12:13 16 Cakadu, China and oil consumption is already happening - i believe their consumption doubled in 2004. My brother visited China last year after being there about 8 years previously and he said there were modern western style SUV's everywhere in the major cities whereas on his earlier trip it was bicycles and old jeeps. Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 12:48 17 The one I can't believe is the price difference between "regular" and so called "premium". If my memory is correct, when we were paying 45 cents for 88 octane the 98 octane was 2 cents more. Now its 10 cents more ($4.50 a gallon) and only 92 (?) octane. Who pays that and why? Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 13:32 18 Emrald, some of the insurance on a vehicle is definitely for replacement cost. Take a look at the BMW SUV. One of those puppies can set you back $80,000 plus. You aren't going to get low insurance rates on that, no matter how good your driving record is. I would hazard a guess that the people driving those are definitely not taking them out into the bush to go four-wheeling.

You're quite right - we shouldn't judge what other people are driving. If they want to pay for all of that, it doesn't bother me. What I objected to was the young lass telling me that it was for my benefit.

People have different thresholds for what they will and won't pay for. I do believe that those that can afford to keep buying no matter what the price end up making it a little harder for the rest of us who are trying to lessen our fuel consumption etc. Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 14:03 19 Linda, the agent that told you exploration was for your benefit was an idiot. The exploration being done is not only for domestic comsumption so others benefit a great deal as well. Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 14:49 20 Well, I don't have red hair emrald, but I think she understood exactly where I was coming from. Reply With Quote
Jun 28, 2005 | 16:18 21 Linda, I think that whomever we deal with has got to know that we won't tolerate condescending comments regardless of who we are or what walk of life we are involved in. All too many farmers have been buffaloed by oil companies because they did not understand their rights and didn't know who to turn to. I will say that things have changed a lot and oil companies are required to be upfront with a lot more information now than years ago. Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2005 | 04:45 22 Actually the land girl was right! Exploration is a benifit to everyone in Canada...it is one of the few products we have where we can compete and actually make some money with!
Obviously we aren't all sharing very equally in the benifits, but then what can you say...this is Kanada, the land of the corrupt!
I guess a person could go back to the horse and buggy and fire up the old cookstove? Sorry, not going to happen!
I also believe it is important to let the market decide who wants to drive what? Pretty sad day when we are all legislated into driving little rice burners!
Quite frankly a toyota truck just doesn't cut it for hauling a big stock trailer or for hauling equipment. Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2005 | 07:40 23 Cowman, over the last fifteen years I have driven several smaller type vehicles and choose to bite the bullet and pay the cost of driving a heavier vehicle that has enough power to get me past logging trucks, service rigs etc., when need be. I have a friend that turns her thermostat down so low in her house that she nearly turns blue permanently all winter just to save money on heating costs, drives a tiny little car, and socks all her spare cash away to leave to the kids !!!!!!

Will the planet be any better off ? Personally, I doubt it, likely the kids will spend the inheritance on a big fancy RV !!!! Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2005 | 14:16 24 "I guess a person could go back to the horse and buggy and fire up the old cookstove? Sorry, not going to happen!" - It might if we continue with our current ignorant approach :
"driving little rice burners!"
"Quite frankly a toyota truck just doesn't cut it for hauling a big stock trailer or for hauling equipment."
Yeah, yeah because we are all big heroic cowboys taming the west - what a load of crap! Look at the traffic in our towns and on highway two - the majority are single people travelling from place to place with minimal personal items and could do it just as well in a fuel efficient 1500cc car as a 6 litre truck.
When we run out of oil I hope you are happy telling your descendants that we spent their inheritance because we were ignorant. Reply With Quote
Jun 29, 2005 | 21:35 25 When the oil and coal are gone we will burn water....that will really get the tree huggers mad. Reply With Quote
Jun 30, 2005 | 04:00 26 grassfarmer: We aren't going to run out of oil and gas...at least not in my or your lifetime! The age of oil is rapidly coming to an end and advanced technolgy will replace that. Powerful oil lobby groups have helped to keep a lot of that technology from moving forward, but in the end it will triumph.
I am not against you on this conservation thing. I find it amusing how people see a gas guzzler as a status symbol! But the fact is you need a big truck to haul equipment and livestock around and unfortunately they use a fair amount of gas?
Believe me I try to keep my fuel costs down whenever possible. I own a Japanese tractor as well as a German one because they are fuel efficient...as well as being more reliable...in my own opinion!
I actually have been considering building a outdoor type wood heating system. The price of Natural gas is getting out of control...again only my own opinion! Reply With Quote
Jun 30, 2005 | 19:54 27 grassfarmer, I don't think your comment about us all being big cowboys wanting to tame the west was entirely fair.

I drove 836 kms since yesterday morning, up into the Peace Country. Saw every vehicle known to man on Highway's 22;43;49;2 and 2A. The majority of them were tractor trailer units, with the next group being RV's and you bet there were a goodly number of stock trailers pulled by fairly big pickups, but in all that distance I doubt if I saw one drug store cowboy trying to tame the west. I saw folks that work for a living driving trucks or folks hauling their cattle to pasture or auctions and of course folks heading out on a vacation. I would venture a guess that less than 10% of the vehicles I saw over the past two days were smaller type fuel efficient cars and trucks but does that make the owners of the rest of the vehicles a bunch of selfish energy wasting louts ? Or are they people that work for a living and those that enjoy leisure time enjoying the fruits of their labour ????? Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2005 | 06:07 28 Now emerald, don't be too hard on grassfarmer! It just bothers him to see people spending money on things he deems non essentual and wasteful! He can't help it...it is just his Scottish heritage!
I was talking to a hired hand on a ranch last week. He was out fixing some fence and we had a little chat. The owner was a Scotchman and was fairly notorius for squeezing a nickel until it squeaked. I asked the young guy how he liked working for the Scottish guy?
He said "Well he tells me all the time he's not cheap...just thrrrifty!" Cracked me up!
Grassfarmer: Don't get all bent out of shape...I'm just having some fun with you! LOL Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2005 | 07:03 29 cowman, I am half scotch, the other half irish, so I do know a bit about being thrifty ! I think that if it is such a sin to drive a larger vehicle then it should be a sin to build the damn things, then we all could drive the little micro cars or whatever they call them, or ride bikes like Senator Tommy Banks thinks we should be doing !
I sure do my share to conserve energy in the winter by using wood heat in part of ther house to keep the natural gas costs down, but then I am likely polluting the environment with wood smoke aren't I ??? Reply With Quote
Jul 2, 2005 | 11:33 30 Damn straight Cowman, It just drives me crazy to see ranchers, hutterites or oil guys leaving their huge trucks running while they spend an hour visiting with neighbours in the summer! Why would you do that? regardless of the environment - it's wasting money.
emrald1 - you must get your wasteful half from the Irish side, that's par for the course for them (in the south anyway). Northern Ireland had a large enough infusion of Scottish blood to keep the work ethic! Reply With Quote