Falling Numbers for CWRS

[mbgrainfarmer]

Does anyone know a website where a guy can go to compare falling numbers between the different varieties of CWRS wheat. I sent my Superb (it had .4% sprouts and .3% is max for a 3cw grade)away for a test and it came back with a faliing number of 155, and was told a good 3CWRS needs a falling number of about 250. I sold all this wheat for 3cw under the KVD system but if we had the falling number system implemented it would have cost me tens of thousands of dollars.
If we are moving to the falling numbers system then it would be nice to know the differences between the varieties under the same less than perfect conditions that we had this fall. Maybe I'm seeding the wrong variety?

[rosco]

I asked my CWB rep the same questions about falling number and was told that falling number is a very good indication of milling quality, but the downside is that sometimes you can have #1 with a poor falling number, or #3 with a good falling number. So do you want to kill yourself trying to get #1 into the bin, only to get a poor price, while your lazy neighbour takes off #3 and gets paid well for a better falling number. Most of the world buys grain based on a visual test, and right now that is to our advantage, because we farmers know how to control and preserve those looks. I haven't a clue how to control falling number.

[rosco]

I should clarify my statement a bit. Under our current system, we know that we will get paid more for #1 than #3. With a falling number based system, Poor looking wheat MIGHT be worth more than good looking wheat.

[melvill]

There is quite a bit of info on wheat falling number on the Canadian Grain Commission web site at http://www.grainscanada.gc.ca/main-e.htm
Click on search at the top of the page and search for "falling number". There is quite a bit of info.

There was a long thread on falling number in this commodity marketing forum somewhere. Falling number is becoming ever more important in export sales as buyers ask for very specific quality measures that grade and VKD don't provide. I believe that most if not all export cargoes are tested for falling number after a cargo of #2 CWRS loaded out of Vancouver was discovered to have low falling numbers at destination. That caused quite a problem for the CWB and the prairie wheat export business!!

Yes, it's correct that #3 can have a good falling number while #1 can have a poor one.

Look for the other thread on falling number

[wd9]

Rosco, are you suggesting it is better to sell grain by appearance than by its objective milling quality stating the presence or absence of specific proteins like alpha-amylase?

[charliep]

From the customer point of view, buying low falling number wheat is like buying a bad batch of prepeared feed if you are a livestock producer. If you buy a bad batch of feed, your milk production in the case of dairy and rates of gain in terms of other livestock drops off almost immediately. Millers get a similar reaction in terms of baking properties. You can blend your way out of the problem in both cases but your likelihood of doing business with that feed mill/wheat marketer is small with price becoming a bigger issue - you will assume the worst and pay accordingly.

[charliep]

In looking at the original question, it had to do with varieties and not necessarily the reasons for down grading. I am not so sure what the varietal experience is. From my knowledge (an economist)some classes are more prone than others (eg. soft white spring). Other classes, falling number is less of an issue (i.e. a mid quality wheat like prairie spring).

Have people observed varietal differences in the wheat classes?

There are other issues. As an example, having a malting barley that germinates quickly is a benefit to a maltster (less time in the malt house). Breeding for this characturistic makes the variety more subseptible to downgrading in a wet fall. A double edged sword that cuts both ways.

[rosco]

WD9
No I am not saying that falling number and other tests should be ignored at the sale table, only that we as farmers have no control over that particluar value of the wheat at this time. Unless there are varieties out there that I am unaware of that give a consistantly good falling number, regardless of the conditions of the harvest, farmers are better off selling wheat based on visual factors. As I said, I have some control over the color, protein, and condition of my wheat. I haven't a clue how to control falling number. Do you?

[Incognito]

If you can't control it, why is the CWB selling Canadian export wheat based on falling numbers?

[TOM4CWB]

mbgrainfarmer,

At the WBGA/WCWGA convention we had the CGC talk about falling numbers.

A severely sprouted kernel can have 1000X the alpha-amylase of a normal kernel.

This stops the normal rising of the dough.

I understand that new milling/baking techiques can even compensate for this low falling number problem... with new emzines, if a consistant flour with the same falling number is always avaliable over a long period.

An inconsistant flour falling number... with wide swings in the flour quality will be a disaster at the bakery when they bake it. The loaves will be half the size with the lower falling number... with the accompanying poor bread quality.

If you have a bread maker in your house... wouldn't you need and demand a flour that would bake correctly first time... and every time?

[charliep]

Rosco

Low falling number is the result of sprouting (or at least the beginning of sprout activity) in a kernel. Historically, our visual has captured this but increased testing/better techniques have pushed this issue forward more. It is a customer requirement in many cases.

The only things a farmer can do is manage their crop to get the best quality possible. Again, I have to seek others thoughts as to whether there are varieties that generally have better resistance to spouting at harvest.

[rosco]

Because fallling number is an excellent indicator of the baking quality of HRS wheat. Mills want to know this value so their flour is the same with every bag and the baker knows each loaf is the same every day. Flour with a low falling number makes bread that won't rise, like a brick. Canada can usually supply milling wheat that has a consistantly good falling number,boat load after boat load, year after year.
Lee, that #2 shipment out of Vancouver, was that low falling number caused by some Grandin wheat that got in as CWRS?

[mbgrainfarmer]

Hello again, what I was originally asking was, is there any information available to compare falling numbers of lets say Superb vs Barrie or Harvest etc. It would be valuable tool to able to compare these varieties, first with them all being graded (KVD)a #1 13.5 protien, and then show the results as the same percentage of sprouts or weathering is being added to the sample, I'm hoping someone did this in a lab while they were checking for sprouting resistence before the varieties got registered. What I am trying to find out is if Superb consistently has a poorer falling number under all the different conditions, then then maybe it is not the variety for my farm in the future.

[Lifer]

Just because some one may not know how to manage their falling number doesn't mean we can't.

The focus has been off supplying what a customer needs. We change our mindset we will be looking at more variables in our production that can improve customer demand qualities.

Variety difference may be one.
What abut different fertility? different harvest methods?
different handling?

What factors affect falling number?

Also a farmer who harvests #3 wheat vs one who harvests #1 isn't automatically lazier.

[rosco]

Charlie, if sprouting leads to a poor falling number, it should be as simple as selecting a variety that shows good resistance to sprouting? According to the Alberta ag site, AC Majestic, Harvest, and McKenzie are some of the best choices for Alberta. By using good varieties, together with good farming practices to protect quality, we are doing all that we can to guard against producing wheat with poor falling numbers. Mother nature kinda takes over from there.
P.S. Makes me glad I bought some Harvest wheat seed last month!