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Landdownunder's Avatar Sep 3, 2022 | 15:22 1 Looking at pros and cons of electric small car.

Interesting at moment they just cannot make enough quality batteries.

Cost of powering up has doubled in last 8 months but so has diesel and gas.

Kicker here in oz if say 150,000 new electric cars hit the market and powered up each night takes 12 to 30 minutes the power grid couldn’t handle it.

Home power systems coulndnt handle it would drain household battery storage.

Sure technology will over comebit in 10 yrs. Reply With Quote
Sep 3, 2022 | 18:19 2 That exactly what’s going to happen everywhere
There is no way the grid will take it Reply With Quote

  • Sep 3, 2022 | 22:36 3 mustn't say that furrow , FFS Reply With Quote
    Sep 3, 2022 | 23:35 4 Just a week after California state regulators voted to ban the sale of gas-powered vehicles by 2035, the state told residents not to charge their electric vehicles during peak hours on Wednesday, and indicated the restrictions could continue through Labor Day weekend

    https://thenationaldesk.com/news/ame...wered-vehicles

    sounds like they planned this one through and made sure the infrastructure was up the task before outlawing gasoline vehicles. Reply With Quote
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  • Sep 3, 2022 | 23:55 5 Cart way way before the horse ….

    Anyone who never seen this coming is completely tone deaf Reply With Quote

  • Sep 4, 2022 | 22:26 6 or just plain stupid Reply With Quote
    Landdownunder's Avatar Sep 5, 2022 | 04:00 7 Yeah agree things ain’t quite working out yet.

    Not in any hurry yet.

    But I liken it to Milwaukee tools. We all had air operated tools, electric came along these things will never work now 15 yrs down the track the mega Milwaukee tools break your darn wrist if ya not holding tight.

    Lad of course who’s a rum drinking rev head, ain’t going electric unless ya can smoke the tyres up….
    PS he pays for his own tyres he will grow out of it.

    Ps I’m not a rabid bone headed climate change sex changed woke type of guy by the way…

    Sad but the third world countries and those who can least afford have most to lose long term but affluent countries will help em out I guess.

    Another pull back here is most EV vehicles coming into Australia are Chinese a lot haven’t forgotten our stoush with Chinese govt and won’t buy Chinese.

    Can of worms
    Last edited by Landdownunder; Sep 5, 2022 at 04:15.
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  • Sep 5, 2022 | 06:38 8 Agree , just not there yet .
    Electric tools are awesome
    Someday EV’s will be too
    Tech changes fast so when it does then push the EV’s .
    But still not before the grid can handle it , of the EV manufactures give a home solar charger with each EV .
    Of course that still useless in winter in Canada , Norway , Finland , Sweden , Russia … just to name a few .
    I said before I would consider an EV truck , I like the idea of no fuel , oil , antifreeze and all the headaches with ICE vehicles.
    Will see how California , New York and others make out . They are banning new ICE car sales
    Their power grids will collapse most likely Reply With Quote
    Sep 5, 2022 | 07:08 9
    Quote Originally Posted by Landdownunder View Post
    Yeah agree things ain’t quite working out yet.

    Not in any hurry yet.

    But I liken it to Milwaukee tools. We all had air operated tools, electric came along these things will never work now 15 yrs down the track the mega Milwaukee tools break your darn wrist if ya not holding tight.

    Lad of course who’s a rum drinking rev head, ain’t going electric unless ya can smoke the tyres up….
    PS he pays for his own tyres he will grow out of it.

    Ps I’m not a rabid bone headed climate change sex changed woke type of guy by the way…

    Sad but the third world countries and those who can least afford have most to lose long term but affluent countries will help em out I guess.

    Another pull back here is most EV vehicles coming into Australia are Chinese a lot haven’t forgotten our stoush with Chinese govt and won’t buy Chinese.

    Can of worms
    In much of the developing world lower cost renewables can deliver some energy independence.

    If you can get massive amounts of wind and solar in some countries at a lower cost than fossil fuels why would you build dependency only on fossil fuels?

    This transition will take time just like the transition from human and animal power to coal and then gas and diesel. It didn't happen overnight and there were many improvements along the way. Reply With Quote
    Sep 5, 2022 | 08:00 10
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckChuck View Post
    In much of the developing world lower cost renewables can deliver some energy independence.

    If you can get massive amounts of wind and solar in some countries at a lower cost than fossil fuels why would you build dependency only on fossil fuels?
    Chuck, you are doing it again. Spreading misinformation. Even outright fake news in this case.

    Is this the same lower cost renewable energy that Germany and California and Australia have been enjoying in recent years?

    You have never been able to find even a single example of renewables actually resulting in lower costs to the consumers. Yet you continue to refer to renewables as lower cost.

    Edit: And to be fair, in the developing world, without a history of reliable grid electricity, if there had been no prior expectation of 24/7 electricity, then the citizens may be satisfied with intermittent solar and wind as a vast improvement over no electricity. You can always charge your phone, pump water, prepare some food, grind some feed, maybe cool off a fridge/freezer, use the internet when the sun is shining, or wind is blowing. But if it isn't backed up 100% with fossil fuel generation, then there is no chance of developing any industry. Can't run an aluminum smelter or assembly line on intermittent electricity that functions on the whims of the weather.

    And, if there is no need to back up the intermittents with 100% reliable generation, then it actually would be cheaper. Just not very useful for an industrial civilization.

    Further edit, I see Blackpowder acknowledged the same thing while I was editing.
    Last edited by AlbertaFarmer5; Sep 5, 2022 at 08:29.
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  • blackpowder's Avatar Sep 5, 2022 | 08:22 11 Notice he's right when he said "some" Reply With Quote
    biglentil's Avatar Sep 5, 2022 | 09:13 12 What a joke.

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    Sep 5, 2022 | 10:07 13
    Quote Originally Posted by biglentil View Post
    What a joke.

    Name:  Screenshot_20220825-174754_CEOca.jpg
Views: 175
Size:  91.1 KB
    While there are a lot of reasons why electric vehicles aren't the panacea they are cracked up to be, I don't think the cost of battery replacement is one that will stop the average consumer. After all, we have been buying cordless tools for decades knowing full well that when the batteries die of old age, we will discard the tool and buy a new one because new batteries cost more than the tool did to start with. This is more a function of the throwaway society we live in, than it is a factor against electric vehicle adoption.

    And as with most things in life, the original purchaser could care less about repair and maintenance costs 10 years down the road, and the manufacturer isn't at all concerned about the consumer buying the used product 10 years from now.
    Of course, if any of this was actually about saving the environment, then throw away vehicles with non-recyclable batteries would matter. The fact that they don't, tells us all we need to know about the motivations of this movement.
    Last edited by AlbertaFarmer5; Sep 5, 2022 at 10:17.
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  • Sep 6, 2022 | 09:19 14 And as usual, Chuck makes some ridiculous unfounded claims. And when called out on it, goes silent on the topic. But apparently still has time to rant and rave and name call and insult and LOL on every other active thread.
    You would almost begin to suspect that he doesn't actually have any evidence of renewable energy not resulting in far higher costs. Reply With Quote
    Sep 6, 2022 | 10:56 15 Here is an interesting article about the coming shortage of sulfur. I've brought this up before, many in the energy industry have been warning about this for years. And the most ironic part, is that demand for sulfuric acid will go up substantially for the batteries and processing of ores for the supposed renewable revolution, at the same time that supply will be dropping if these technologies do succeed in replacing fossil fuels.
    https://spectrum.ieee.org/amp/sulfur...age-2658114125
    Could it get to the point where we go purposely drilling for sour gas or sour oil just to extract the sulfur, then flare off the hydrocarbons as a byproduct? With the added bonus of maintaining our slightly elevated CO2 levels. Reply With Quote
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  • Sep 6, 2022 | 13:12 16
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View Post
    Here is an interesting article about the coming shortage of sulfur. I've brought this up before, many in the energy industry have been warning about this for years. And the most ironic part, is that demand for sulfuric acid will go up substantially for the batteries and processing of ores for the supposed renewable revolution, at the same time that supply will be dropping if these technologies do succeed in replacing fossil fuels.
    https://spectrum.ieee.org/amp/sulfur...age-2658114125
    Could it get to the point where we go purposely drilling for sour gas or sour oil just to extract the sulfur, then flare off the hydrocarbons as a byproduct? With the added bonus of maintaining our slightly elevated CO2 levels.
    Already is a tightening supply of sulphur as the push is for sweet oil and no one wants the sour stuff. Unintended consequences of changes. I guess the ones who think they’re smarter have an answer for this or perhaps not. Reply With Quote

  • Sep 6, 2022 | 13:17 17
    Quote Originally Posted by WiltonRanch View Post
    Already is a tightening supply of sulphur as the push is for sweet oil and no one wants the sour stuff. Unintended consequences of changes. I guess the ones who think they’re smarter have an answer for this or perhaps not.
    Around here, some of the formerly sour fields are becoming sweet apparently. Sour gas plants are being converted over to process sweet. Other sour plants are being closed outright.
    Our creep wooded soils are very short on sulfur. Can't grow alfalfa or Canola without generous amounts of sulfur.
    But according to the experts, we don't need fossil fuels. Reply With Quote
    Landdownunder's Avatar Sep 7, 2022 | 03:56 18 Not electric cars but but some reading following a news report about “clean air day”

    Foreign governments are spending 30 times more on fossil fuel projects in Africa than on initiatives to lessen the impacts of the continent’s second-biggest killer, air pollution, research showed on Wednesday.

    The report, released on the International Day of Clean Air, showed that 0.3 per cent of African countries’ development assistance received in 2015-21 had been specifically earmarked for air-quality projects, despite pollution being responsible for one in five deaths continent-wide.

    The analysis by the Clean Air Fund found that during the same period, donor nations provided 36 times more funding for prolonging fossil fuel use in Africa.

    It’s why I alluded the other day that climate change politics is going to ruin third world countries make them far worse. They need fossil fuels there untapped resource.

    Not as polished as some of you with English dialect and don’t explain my self how I would like at times but blind Freddy can see the green dream and it’s affects on many countries.

    Many won’t acknowledge it even for a moment. Reply With Quote
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  • Sep 7, 2022 | 07:00 19 https://irena.org/newsroom/pressreleases/2022/Jul/Renewable-Power-Remains-Cost-Competitive-amid-Fossil-Fuel-Crisis

    Renewable Power Remains Cost-Competitive amid Fossil Fuel Crisis

    13 July 2022| Press Release

    New IRENA report shows almost two-thirds of renewable power added in 2021 had lower costs than the cheapest coal-fired options in G20 countries.

    Abu Dhabi, UAE, 13 July 2022 – Costs for renewables continued to fall in 2021 as supply chain challenges and rising commodity prices have yet to show their full impact on project costs. The cost of electricity from onshore wind fell by 15%, offshore wind by 13% and solar PV by 13% compared to 2020.

    Renewable Power Generation Costs in 2021, published by the International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA) today, shows that almost two-thirds or 163 gigawatts (GW) of newly installed renewable power in 2021 had lower costs than the world’s cheapest coal-fired option in the G20. IRENA estimates that, given the current high fossil fuel prices, the renewable power added in 2021 saves around USD 55 billion from global energy generation costs in 2022.

    IRENA’s new report confirms the critical role that cost-competitive renewables play in addressing today’s energy and climate emergencies by accelerating the transition in line with the 1.5°C warming limit and the Paris Agreement goals. Solar and wind energy, with their relatively short project lead times, represent vital planks in countries’ efforts to swiftly reduce, and eventually phase out, fossil fuels and limit the macroeconomic damages they cause in pursuit of net zero.

    “Renewables are by far the cheapest form of power today,” Francesco La Camera, Director-General of IRENA said. “2022 is a stark example of just how economically viable new renewable power generation has become. Renewable power frees economies from volatile fossil fuel prices and imports, curbs energy costs and enhances market resilience – even more so if today’s energy crunch continues.”

    “While a temporary crisis response might be necessary in the current situation, excuses to soften climate goals will not hold mid-to-long-term. Today’s situation is a devastating reminder that renewables and energy saving are the future. With the COP27 in Egypt and COP28 in the UAE ahead, renewables provide governments with affordable energy to align with net zero and turn their climate promises into concrete action with real benefits for people on the ground,” he added.

    Investments in renewables continue to pay huge dividends in 2022, as highlighted by IRENA’s costs data. In non-OECD countries, the 109 GW of renewable energy additions in 2021 that cost less than the cheapest new fossil fuel-fired option will reduce costs by at least USD 5.7 billion annually for the next 25-30 years.

    High coal and fossil gas prices in 2021 and 2022 will also profoundly deteriorate the competitiveness of fossil fuels and make solar and wind even more attractive. With an unprecedented surge in European fossil gas prices for example, new fossil gas generation in Europe will increasingly become uneconomic over its lifetime, increasing the risk of stranded assets.


    The European example shows that fuel and CO2 costs for existing gas plants might average four to six times more in 2022 than the lifetime cost of new solar PV and onshore wind commissioned in 2021. Between January and May 2022, the generation of solar and wind power may have saved Europe fossil fuel imports in the magnitude of no less than USD 50 billion, predominantly fossil gas.

    As to supply chains, IRENA’s data suggests that not all materials cost increases have been passed through into equipment prices and project costs yet. If material costs remain elevated, the price pressures in 2022 will be more pronounced. Increases might however be dwarfed by the overall gains of cost-competitive renewables in comparison to higher fossil fuel prices.

    Read the full report Renewable Power Generation Costs in 2021. Reply With Quote
    Sep 7, 2022 | 07:24 20 IRENA??

    That's the cheerleader team for renewable energy?

    All to point out that gas plants are running at 3 to 4 times higher in the EU?
    That makes renewables the solution?

    The EU had all the power production they needed to run an industrial economy. They shut most of it down to go green.
    The green part is progressing.
    We will see how the economy works out. Reply With Quote
    Sep 7, 2022 | 09:20 21 Chuck, I asked for results that show lower costs to the end user. Not the meaningless generation costs. Somehow between producing free energy and getting that to the consumer, it always results in multiple times the cost of the reliable alternatives. Reply With Quote
    Sep 7, 2022 | 09:23 22
    Quote Originally Posted by Landdownunder View Post
    Not electric cars but but some reading following a news report about “clean air day”

    Foreign governments are spending 30 times more on fossil fuel projects in Africa than on initiatives to lessen the impacts of the continent’s second-biggest killer, air pollution, research showed on Wednesday.

    The report, released on the International Day of Clean Air, showed that 0.3 per cent of African countries’ development assistance received in 2015-21 had been specifically earmarked for air-quality projects, despite pollution being responsible for one in five deaths continent-wide.

    The analysis by the Clean Air Fund found that during the same period, donor nations provided 36 times more funding for prolonging fossil fuel use in Africa.

    It’s why I alluded the other day that climate change politics is going to ruin third world countries make them far worse. They need fossil fuels there untapped resource.

    Not as polished as some of you with English dialect and don’t explain my self how I would like at times but blind Freddy can see the green dream and it’s affects on many countries.

    Many won’t acknowledge it even for a moment.
    Most of the air pollution in third world countries that is killing people is coming from burning dung and wood for cooking in poorly ventilated places. Easiest solution by far is fossil fuel energy. Reply With Quote
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  • Sep 7, 2022 | 10:57 23 Looked into an ev Polaris ranger. It’s gasoline counterpart is $4000 less. Wouldn’t mind one but cost difference too large. Thought it’d be ideal for my needs. Reply With Quote
    Sep 7, 2022 | 12:30 24
    Quote Originally Posted by WiltonRanch View Post
    Looked into an ev Polaris ranger. It’s gasoline counterpart is $4000 less. Wouldn’t mind one but cost difference too large. Thought it’d be ideal for my needs.
    I agree, that is a unique application where electric would be a big benefit. Range isn't a big issue, it comes back to the same location after short trips, where it is parked unused most of the time.

    So how long would it take to pay back the $4,000 price difference?

    Pretend that electricity is half the price of gasoline. It was even cheaper than that a while ago, recently I've heard it is now costing more to charge a Tesla than it would have to drive a gasoline vehicle, so half is probably a reasonable estimate.

    Our ATV use is very sporadic. Mike burn 10 l a week during calving or Rock picking. Might not move at all most of the winter. Average of that out to 5 l a week. 250 l a year, saving half the cost of fuel call it 75 cents which is high right now.

    Round it up to $200 to account for an oil change or two. So it would only take 20 years to break even on the additional cost of the electric atv.
    And we all know that 20-year-old ATVs on the farm (especially those with cattle, their ATVs never get abused whatsoever) are all still in pristine condition***, with at least another 20 years of productive life left over to start actually making money on your investment.

    And that is before taking into account the time value of that $4,000 that was spent up front. Reply With Quote
    Sep 7, 2022 | 15:19 25
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View Post
    I agree, that is a unique application where electric would be a big benefit. Range isn't a big issue, it comes back to the same location after short trips, where it is parked unused most of the time.

    So how long would it take to pay back the $4,000 price difference?

    Pretend that electricity is half the price of gasoline. It was even cheaper than that a while ago, recently I've heard it is now costing more to charge a Tesla than it would have to drive a gasoline vehicle, so half is probably a reasonable estimate.

    Our ATV use is very sporadic. Mike burn 10 l a week during calving or Rock picking. Might not move at all most of the winter. Average of that out to 5 l a week. 250 l a year, saving half the cost of fuel call it 75 cents which is high right now.

    Round it up to $200 to account for an oil change or two. So it would only take 20 years to break even on the additional cost of the electric atv.
    And we all know that 20-year-old ATVs on the farm (especially those with cattle, their ATVs never get abused whatsoever) are all still in pristine condition***, with at least another 20 years of productive life left over to start actually making money on your investment.

    And that is before taking into account the time value of that $4,000 that was spent up front.
    Exactly. Price point scares me away at this time and the fact the battery will crap out before a gas engine. So it is a matter of cost and longevity. Till that is solved EV’s are a novelty for the rich and intrepid. I like the concept of electric drive anything but it isn’t quite there for consumer transportation that makes it economical vs gasoline or diesel. Imagine our friend who doesn’t own an ev yet will tell us we are negative nellies but even if gasoline cost was double that what electricity could transport you it is the capital cost and replacement of the battery which is a deal breaker for me. I still think there are strides to be made in diesel electric drives on ag and industrial equipment. There alone could save 30% fuel consumption and opens up possibilities for traction control only a dream with mechanical drives. Even converting shipping over to lng will do more than messing with electric cars. I think the electric car think is one of those things like the metal drives during the war. It gave people at home a sense of purpose collecting all the metal they could find in hopes it defeated Hitler. A lot of it was dumped in landfills. Reply With Quote

  • Sep 7, 2022 | 16:48 26 Yes, but in credit to our economical friend, he's only waiting for the price of electric vehicles to come down so he can buy his. And since he first stated that, I believe lithium is up by a factor of three, and all of the other materials required to build an electric car up by comparable amounts, plus shortages of microchips. Plus the increased carbon tax on all of the costs involved in producing and transporting and recharging the electric vehicle.

    I am beginning to think that his plans of owning an electric vehicle when they become cost competitive rate right up there with his waiting for global warming to come true, new battery technology to come along, and up-to-date data on covid vaccine effectiveness. Reply With Quote
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  • Partners's Avatar Sep 8, 2022 | 06:44 27

    New ideas every day. Reply With Quote
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  • Sep 8, 2022 | 06:55 28 A4 seems pretty happy with his Tesla and the reduced cost of charging the battery compared to gas or diesel. But pay no heed to A4 even though he has the only real world experience with an EV on Agriville.

    Yes many EVs are too expensive and battery life is a big question mark. But consumers seem to be buying $80,000 pickup trucks whether they need them or not and price and cost of ownership seems not to be much of a concern. Got to have a truck cause they are the new overpriced over marketed status luxury vehicle.

    But the assumption that EVs will always be more expensive than ICE vehicles is dumb. The auto industry is working hard to bring EV prices down and price parity will occur at some point. And battery technology will improve.

    You can give up your electric tools and go back to pulling hand wrenches. And put away your smart phone and stick with the party line! Give up on GPS and auto steering. It will never work said your granpappy! LOL
    Last edited by chuckChuck; Sep 8, 2022 at 07:00.
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    Sep 8, 2022 | 07:04 29
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckChuck View Post

    But the assumption that EVs will always be more expensive than ICE vehicles is dumb. The auto industry is working hard to bring EV prices down and price parity will occur at some point. And battery technology will improve.
    Like a broken record. Just keeps repeating the same wishful thinking over and over again inspite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Reply With Quote
    Sep 8, 2022 | 07:13 30 Still using a party line A5. Two rings or one?

    When you get a chance talk to A4 or did you forget he seems to think EVs are the way of the future? He must be a marxist! LOL Reply With Quote