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Oct 27, 2021 | 06:28 121
Quote Originally Posted by TOM4CWB View Post
I see the Alberta Referendum result was announced today; 62% in favour of renegotiation of equalization... UCP got something right!

Cheers
Yesterday Kenney said 62% of Albertans supported renegotiation of equalization. First, that was not the question that was asked. The actual referendum question was: Should section 36(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982 – Parliament and the government of Canada’s commitment to the principle of making equalization payments – be removed from the constitution?

But then when challenged on this claim of the percentage of ALBERTANS who were in favor given only 38% of Albertans bothered to vote he clarified that 62% of those who voted were in favor of the question.

But this morning I see even this claim is a fabrication as the official election Alberta count https://officialresults.elections.ab.ca/orResultsReferendum2021.cfm?EventId=68RQ1&QUESTION NO=1
shows he did not include blank ballots or spoiled ballots when coming up with his percentage. In fact there were 642,501 yes votes out of 1,092,639 electors who accepted the referendum ballot for a percentage of 58.8% who actually voted yes on the referendum question

Must be following the proposed UPC education curriculum to have come up with his initial 62% or Albertans in favor claim, or is he just a habitual liar? Reply With Quote
Oct 27, 2021 | 06:36 122 What is wrong with you??? Reply With Quote

  • Oct 27, 2021 | 06:38 123
    Quote Originally Posted by dmlfarmer View Post
    Yesterday Kenney said 62% of Albertans supported renegotiation of equalization. First, that was not the question that was asked. The actual referendum question was: Should section 36(2) of the Constitution Act, 1982 – Parliament and the government of Canada’s commitment to the principle of making equalization payments – be removed from the constitution?

    But then when challenged on this claim of the percentage of ALBERTANS who were in favor given only 38% of Albertans bothered to vote he clarified that 62% of those who voted were in favor of the question.

    But this morning I see even this claim is a fabrication as the official election Alberta count https://officialresults.elections.ab.ca/orResultsReferendum2021.cfm?EventId=68RQ1&QUESTION NO=1
    shows he did not include blank ballots or spoiled ballots when coming up with his percentage. In fact there were 642,501 yes votes out of 1,092,639 electors who accepted the referendum ballot for a percentage of 58.8% who actually voted yes on the referendum question

    Must be following the proposed UPC education curriculum to have come up with his initial 62% or Albertans in favor claim, or is he just a habitual liar?
    So kinda like our last Federal election , how many actually voted for the liberals ??
    I get your point , but do you ? Reply With Quote
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    ajl, GDR

  • Oct 27, 2021 | 07:02 124
    Quote Originally Posted by furrowtickler View Post
    So kinda like our last Federal election , how many actually voted for the liberals ??
    I get your point , but do you ?
    Or like the 2019 Alberta election where the UPC won 72% of the seats with only 54.88% of the vote. First past the post benefits both left and right parties.

    And I don't think you do get my point which is Kenney demand for change gets weaker every time he is caught inflating the results. Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 07:11 125 Kenney's referendum will go no where. It's just more politics to take the attention off his dismal record and ratings.

    The referendum results were predictable considering the fact most people don't understand how the federal program works. Case in point. How many times do you see comments on Agrisilly that Alberta has to stop paying equalization to Quebec? There is no such program of payments from Alberta to Quebec. Nor is it true that Quebec's hydro resources are not included in the equalization formulae.

    The last prime minister to change the equalization formula was Steve Harper and Kenney was in the cabinet! They tweaked it a little. If Kenney thought they could negotiate a better deal for Alberta that was their best opportunity.

    So if the program was fundamentally flawed then as it is now, why didn't they advocate getting rid of it?

    When the rest of the country looks at the fact that Alberta is a way better off than them with higher per capita incomes and a higher fiscal capacity primarily because of their luck at sitting on large oil and gas reserves, it's hard to argue that Alberta is put at a disadvantage. Especially as oil prices surge and consumers will be transferring a lot of their wealth to oil companies in Alberta. The timing to cry wolf about equalization couldn't be worse for Kenney.

    Sure Alberta contributes a lot of federal taxes to a federal program. But the reality is Alberta has a lot of advantages and pays a lot of taxes because of their high per capita income advantage.
    Last edited by chuckChuck; Oct 27, 2021 at 07:19.
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    Oct 27, 2021 | 07:19 126
    Quote Originally Posted by dmlfarmer View Post
    Or like the 2019 Alberta election where the UPC won 72% of the seats with only 54.88% of the vote. First past the post benefits both left and right parties.

    And I don't think you do get my point which is Kenney demand for change gets weaker every time he is caught inflating the results.
    What were the numbers on the last Federal election for the liberals before you continue to throw stones at this Alberta referendum vote ? Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 07:29 127
    Quote Originally Posted by dmlfarmer View Post
    Or like the 2019 Alberta election where the UPC won 72% of the seats with only 54.88% of the vote. First past the post benefits both left and right parties.

    And I don't think you do get my point which is Kenney demand for change gets weaker every time he is caught inflating the results.
    I don’t really care about Kenny, I don’t live in Alberta but you bring up a good point , Liberals are governing this country with less than 20% of the populations approval ? I could be wrong

    Yet that was considered fully legit and we still have Peter Pan running this country into the ground and about to get worse
    Last edited by furrowtickler; Oct 27, 2021 at 08:26.
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    Oct 27, 2021 | 07:30 128
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckChuck View Post
    Kenney's referendum will go no where. It's just more politics to take the attention off his dismal record and ratings.

    The referendum results were predictable considering the fact most people don't understand how the federal program works. Case in point. How many times do you see comments on Agrisilly that Alberta has to stop paying equalization to Quebec? There is no such program of payments from Alberta to Quebec. Nor is it true that Quebec's hydro resources are not included in the equalization formulae.

    The last prime minister to change the equalization formula was Steve Harper and Kenney was in the cabinet! They tweaked it a little. If Kenney thought they could negotiate a better deal for Alberta that was their best opportunity.

    So if the program was fundamentally flawed then as it is now, why didn't they advocate getting rid of it?

    When the rest of the country looks at the fact that Alberta is a way better off than them with higher per capita incomes and a higher fiscal capacity primarily because of their luck at sitting on large oil and gas reserves, it's hard to argue that Alberta is put at a disadvantage. Especially as oil prices surge and consumers will be transferring a lot of their wealth to oil companies in Alberta. The timing to cry wolf about equalization couldn't be worse for Kenney.

    Sure Alberta contributes a lot of federal taxes to a federal program. But the reality is Alberta has a lot of advantages and pays a lot of taxes because of their high per capita income advantage.
    Is there not several private hydro dams in Quebec?
    Are they included ? Just curious Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 07:33 129 DML is a hypocrite know it all that won’t acknowledge when he’s wrong, pushes only one side of the narrative.

    Paid propagandist??? Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 07:38 130 Does Quebec have some exemptions that other provinces don't have in the equalization formula?

    Doesn't it seem that if they won't allow a natural resource pipeline then they shouldn't take money from
    the sale of that natural resource?

    Another natural resource opportunity lost- Windmills and thermal collection in front of all political parties HQ's Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 07:46 131
    Quote Originally Posted by dmlfarmer View Post
    Or like the 2019 Alberta election where the UPC won 72% of the seats with only 54.88% of the vote. First past the post benefits both left and right parties.

    And I don't think you do get my point which is Kenney demand for change gets weaker every time he is caught inflating the results.
    In the last federal election somewhere around 18% of eligible voters voted for Justin Trudeau, in the equalization referendum roughly 23% of eligible voters voted yes to have equalization removed from the constitution? Which one is more legitimate? Reply With Quote

  • jazz's Avatar Oct 27, 2021 | 07:47 132
    Quote Originally Posted by wade View Post
    Does Quebec have some exemptions that other provinces don't have in the equalization formula?
    They dont really but they game the hydro revenues by subsidizing it and then setting artificial prices and then delivering more govt services to the people, which keeps incomes low.

    If AB decided to become more socialist it too could game the formula with higher taxation.

    But AB relies heavily on investment to run its economy, so raising rates would have the opposite effect of luring capital here. Quebec doesnt care about capital, nobody invests there. Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 07:52 133
    Quote Originally Posted by jazz View Post
    They dont really but they game the hydro revenues by subsidizing it and then setting artificial prices and then delivering more govt services to the people, which keeps incomes low.

    If AB decided to become more socialist it too could game the formula with higher taxation.

    But AB relies heavily on investment to run its economy, so raising rates would have the opposite effect of luring capital here. Quebec doesnt care about capital, nobody invests there.
    They have the great SNC Lavalin there ...


    Trustworthy outstanding company Reply With Quote
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  • Oct 27, 2021 | 08:01 134
    Quote Originally Posted by jazz View Post
    They dont really but they game the hydro revenues by subsidizing it and then setting artificial prices and then delivering more govt services to the people, which keeps incomes low.

    If AB decided to become more socialist it too could game the formula with higher taxation.

    But AB relies heavily on investment to run its economy, so raising rates would have the opposite effect of luring capital here. Quebec doesnt care about capital, nobody invests there.
    They’re just smarter than our politicians out west. So
    Many ways they could have gotten money back including
    The drought
    But they’d rather have the politics of being
    Screwed on their side to keep the extremists
    On side. Reply With Quote
    jazz's Avatar Oct 27, 2021 | 08:04 135
    Quote Originally Posted by the big wheel View Post
    They’re just smarter than our politicians out west. So
    Canadians are too broke and stupid to invest in their own industries, so AB needs outside capital, usually from the US. Thats why our major companies trade on the NYSE.

    Without it our patch would look like Venezuela. Probably going to be that way eventually if Ab doesnt find some fight in its belly real fast. Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 08:25 136 The west has to take a stance , this can not continue I don’t care how anyone tries to justify it ...


    How anyone living in western Canada can’t see that this is so flawed is beyond comprehension

    Good on Alberta for at least taking a stand . Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 08:56 137
    Quote Originally Posted by wade View Post
    Does Quebec have some exemptions that other provinces don't have in the equalization formula?

    Doesn't it seem that if they won't allow a natural resource pipeline then they shouldn't take money from
    the sale of that natural resource?

    Another natural resource opportunity lost- Windmills and thermal collection in front of all political parties HQ's
    Equalization funding does not come from the sale of natural resources. Nor is it funded by the provinces. It comes from general revenue generated by federal income taxes levied at exactly the same rate regardless of where taxpayers live in Canada. So trying to tie equalization funding to pipeline development is again simply playing politics. Resource income has generated higher incomes therefore residents in Alberta, as a group, have paid more money into equalization. But they have also enjoyed more services, and lower taxes because of those higher incomes. Reply With Quote
  • 1 Like


  • Oct 27, 2021 | 10:01 138
    Quote Originally Posted by dmlfarmer View Post
    Or like the 2019 Alberta election where the UPC won 72% of the seats with only 54.88% of the vote. First past the post benefits both left and right parties.

    And I don't think you do get my point which is Kenney demand for change gets weaker every time he is caught inflating the results.
    Unless you can prove that statistically, the broader population would have voted differently than those who were motivated to go out and vote, then these pointless arguments about the percent who turned out are irrelevant.

    Although, it certainly is disappointing that turn out was still this low when we were finally given a chance to send a message to the ROC. The fact that such a small percentage of people are informed enough to make the effort to show up and vote on the referendum is the truly depressing part.

    I never vote, because my riding, both provincially and federally is about the safest conservative riding in the country, but I did vote in this municipal election, specifically because of the referendum.

    And no, I am not in favour of mandatory voting, such as they have in Australia. Forcing the uninformed or ignorant to vote aganst their will just makes it worse.

    I would support informed voting, where voters are asked to simple skill testing questions about the policies of the candidate they just voted for. If they get them wrong, their voted is nullified. Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 10:49 139
    Quote Originally Posted by furrowtickler View Post
    The west has to take a stance , this can not continue I don’t care how anyone tries to justify it ...


    How anyone living in western Canada can’t see that this is so flawed is beyond comprehension

    Good on Alberta for at least taking a stand .
    Alberta has been receiving federal transfers for ever. But those transfer are not in the graphic?

    Alberta has generated far more GDP from natural resources per capita than any other province and has benefited greatly from resource revenue.

    But they don't want to pay their fair share of federal taxes. They're special.

    It sucks to be richest province per capita and have to pay federal taxes at the same rate as every other Canadian. Reply With Quote
    jazz's Avatar Oct 27, 2021 | 11:40 140 The national playbook has been set for the next 2 yrs.

    Kenny has his mandate and will legitimize it in the legislature shortly. It will be ignored and ridiculed by eastern Canada, and will become a pivot point for Alberta to be treated as those people who are anti Canadian. Like antivaxxers or some shit. CBC will be all over it.

    Thats what the next election will be fought on, meanwhile radical ESG retard Guilbeault and former Sask NDP flameout refugee Wilkinson will be going all in on Western canada, not just oil, but ag as well, mining, everything. Quebec and maritimes will be spared all regulation.

    Alberta will have its pension plan ace in the hole to play yet. And then we are off to constitutional crisis and hopefully permanent split.

    https://www.prairiepost.com/alberta/free-alberta-strategy-group-including-med-hat-mla-calls-on-premier-to-make-alberta-a/article_ec06e75a-2085-11ec-b108-d32ede70be0d.html
    Last edited by jazz; Oct 27, 2021 at 11:42.
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    Oct 27, 2021 | 13:19 141
    Quote Originally Posted by jazz View Post
    The national playbook has been set for the next 2 yrs.

    Kenny has his mandate and will legitimize it in the legislature shortly. It will be ignored and ridiculed by eastern Canada, and will become a pivot point for Alberta to be treated as those people who are anti Canadian. Like antivaxxers or some shit. CBC will be all over it.

    Thats what the next election will be fought on, meanwhile radical ESG retard Guilbeault and former Sask NDP flameout refugee Wilkinson will be going all in on Western canada, not just oil, but ag as well, mining, everything. Quebec and maritimes will be spared all regulation.

    Alberta will have its pension plan ace in the hole to play yet. And then we are off to constitutional crisis and hopefully permanent split.

    https://www.prairiepost.com/alberta/free-alberta-strategy-group-including-med-hat-mla-calls-on-premier-to-make-alberta-a/article_ec06e75a-2085-11ec-b108-d32ede70be0d.html
    not with that chicken shit kenney Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 14:33 142
    Quote Originally Posted by caseih View Post
    not with that chicken shit kenney
    Sad but true.

    Equalization referendum, threatening to pull out of CPP and RCMP, are just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
    We need to cut the chain to the anchor, and do it fast, since they are determined to drag us all down with them. Just read the crap Chuck posts if you have any doubts. Reply With Quote
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  • Oct 27, 2021 | 14:51 143
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckChuck View Post
    Alberta has been receiving federal transfers for ever. But those transfer are not in the graphic?

    Alberta has generated far more GDP from natural resources per capita than any other province and has benefited greatly from resource revenue.

    But they don't want to pay their fair share of federal taxes. They're special.

    It sucks to be richest province per capita and have to pay federal taxes at the same rate as every other Canadian.
    Look at the numbers , the only special province in Canada is Quebec .
    More of the transfer payments need to stay in western Canada if there is to be any future for western Canadians . It’s a slanted wealth transfer scheme pure and simple , and the carbon tax is no different Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 15:04 144
    Quote Originally Posted by furrowtickler View Post
    Look at the numbers , the only special province in Canada is Quebec .
    More of the transfer payments need to stay in western Canada if there is to be any future for western Canadians . It’s a slanted wealth transfer scheme pure and simple , and the carbon tax is no different
    Besides, the free market had worked out a very effective equalization scheme without government intervention.
    How it works is that people move from places where their standard of living is less than they would aspire to because of a lack of good paying jobs, and move to places where there are more jobs than employees, and hence good wages and a better standard of living.

    Canada, unlike those communist type places that Chuck worships, doesn't restrict the movement of people within the country. People from Quebec are welcome to move to the west to partake in the easy money( easy according to Chuck at least), as are the residents of any other province.

    After working in Alberta throughout the recent boom times, easily half of my coworkers were from outside of Alberta. BC and Saskatchewan being well represnted, Manitoba to a smaller degree, plenty came from Ontario. Newfoundland, that goes without saying, I think they all came, New Brunswick, quite a few, PEI sent more than their fare share considering their size, Nova Scotian's, specifically Cape Bretoner's, made such a large part of our work force, that they had their own crews, all honest hard working good natured people. Some from the Territories. And in all the years, and all the people I knew, I only knew one who came from Quebec, and his work ethic left a lot to be desired.

    Since Quebec is a perrenial have not province, I would have thought that they would be leaving in droves for greener pastures, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 15:44 145 A question for those opposed to equalization

    Since most of you are convinced that equalization is bad, and that it is wrong to use income tax monies from higher income areas of the country to support basic services in areas that cannot afford these services I would like your opinion on this scenario.

    You live in an RM with 10 landowners (10 provinces) The mil rate is the same for all landowners (just like the the federal income tax rate is the same across Canada) Of course larger landowners pay more taxes than small land holders. And those blessed with better quality land pay more through higher assessments - the theory being better quality land will provide higher earnings. The taxes collected by the RM goes to fund basic services as determined by council: road, recreation facilities. fire protection, portion of education etc.

    One of the landowners is a BTO with lands not only in your RM but many others. He does not live in the RM nor do any of his employees. One day the BTO decides he should not have to pay the same mil rate as anyone else because he does not receive the same amount of benefit as small farmers living in the RM. He does not need roads maintained year round, only spring and fall - in fact he thinks there are too many roads and wants to have some removed to make his fields bigger. He feels the inconvenience to other landowner if roads would be closed should be no big deal. He argues that there are less miles of roads in other RMs he farms in. And why should he have to support recreation facilities in some hick RM when he and his employees never use them. Same goes with education - let the people with children attending school in the RM pay for it or they can bus them to someplace else. And with his big equipment, water truck, and employees, they can handle any fires on their property themselves, probably better than a volunteer department if they are working in the RM when fires break out.



    Another landowner is a large established farm operation who principle owner lives in the city and spends winters out of country. A third is a childless, lifetime bachelor who also has never benefited from the education portion of his property taxes.

    The BTO's reasoning gets the two other large landowners also questioning why they are paying as more in property taxes than small landowners in the RM; especially for services they also don't use year round They see the BTOs argument as valid and join the chorus demanding change. Not only would it reduce their tax bill but these three also see a potential benefit of being able to expand their own operations with more money and maybe more opportunities. They wonder if by paying less property taxes, they might be able to expand their own operations if the remaining 7 smaller holders who lose services like education and recreation because of less tax support leave the RM.

    So my question is if you disagree with equalization to fund the same basic services, are you also for basing property taxes on services used? Should a person who spends the winters in Arizona have to fund any snow plowing of RM roads? Reply With Quote
  • 1 Like


  • Oct 27, 2021 | 16:12 146
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View Post
    Besides, the free market had worked out a very effective equalization scheme without government intervention.
    How it works is that people move from places where their standard of living is less than they would aspire to because of a lack of good paying jobs, and move to places where there are more jobs than employees, and hence good wages and a better standard of living.

    Canada, unlike those communist type places that Chuck worships, doesn't restrict the movement of people within the country. People from Quebec are welcome to move to the west to partake in the easy money( easy according to Chuck at least), as are the residents of any other province.

    After working in Alberta throughout the recent boom times, easily half of my coworkers were from outside of Alberta. BC and Saskatchewan being well represnted, Manitoba to a smaller degree, plenty came from Ontario. Newfoundland, that goes without saying, I think they all came, New Brunswick, quite a few, PEI sent more than their fare share considering their size, Nova Scotian's, specifically Cape Bretoner's, made such a large part of our work force, that they had their own crews, all honest hard working good natured people. Some from the Territories. And in all the years, and all the people I knew, I only knew one who came from Quebec, and his work ethic left a lot to be desired.

    Since Quebec is a perrenial have not province, I would have thought that they would be leaving in droves for greener pastures, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
    Why would you work when you’re taken care of so well.
    They are selfish and self entitled, traits we seem to need more of out here.

    At least the Newfie’s came and worked the French guys whine and complain while here then head back home to lala land.
    Last edited by jwab; Oct 27, 2021 at 16:18.
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  • Oct 27, 2021 | 16:24 147 Holy fu(( DML, all that for that, good god.

    You come on here trying to dis a vote by Albertans because of turnout that was as good as the federal election to push your left propaganda.

    Your a real piece of work. Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 17:56 148
    Quote Originally Posted by jwab View Post
    Holy fu(( DML, all that for that, good god.

    You come on here trying to dis a vote by Albertans because of turnout that was as good as the federal election to push your left propaganda.

    Your a real piece of work.
    Instead of insults how about answering my question. If a landowner is not using basic rm provided services should he be expected to pay same rate of property taxes? Or should his tax rate be bases on value of services he received? If he pays more in gross property tax should he get more services? Reply With Quote
  • 1 Like


  • jazz's Avatar Oct 27, 2021 | 18:05 149 dml, your analogy made my head spin. Its just so much simpler than that.

    Equalization was never an issue until Trudeau wanted to bleed the province paying for most. Kenny may have renewed the formula, but even he couldnt imaging the incompetent evil idiot that the people would elect 3 times.

    And for AF5s idea that instead of equalization we employ people here, thats all well and good, until they go back home and vote against us anyway like every newfie just did. No thanks. Reply With Quote
    Oct 27, 2021 | 18:16 150
    Quote Originally Posted by jazz View Post
    dml, your analogy made my head spin. Its just so much simpler than that.
    ...
    It's what sophists do best. Reply With Quote
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