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Feb 25, 2021 | 08:29 1 https://www.msn.com/en-ca/weather/topstories/ocean-currents-close-to-tipping-point-as-greenland-ice-sheets-melt/vi-BB1e0IJF?ocid=msedgntp Reply With Quote
Feb 25, 2021 | 08:42 2 That news clip is Absolute nonsense! Can hardly believe you would post that. Reply With Quote

  • fjlip's Avatar Feb 25, 2021 | 10:41 3 Look! There's a squirrel...Lieberal Reply With Quote
  • 2 Likes


  • Feb 25, 2021 | 12:13 4
    Quote Originally Posted by fjlip View Post
    Look! There's a squirrel...Lieberal
    Volatility in weather should be the point... how the Sun acts will be key over the next 10 years more than anything else... besides the rampant hypocrisy of civilization feeding on self delusion greed to feed our multinational bullies...

    'The Fear of God is the beginning of all Wisdom'

    As we kill off depressed and mentally ill people with 'Assisted Suicide' ...adding in the old and young who 'crimp our ego's'... besides the 1.5B humans that have been aborted since 1980...

    The Pandemic that is the brainstain of our eastern neighbors civilization manipulation...President Biden/China now encouraging Iran in building their nuke to blow up Israel...

    North Korea will be soon out the gate... then we weaponize Space...

    The odds of 'Global Warming' ending our civilization, with any sane analyzed standard...is more unlikely than Trump winning 'Man of the Year'!

    But lets spend $100T on batteries, EV's, Decommissioning all Coal/then NG... electrical generation in North America... Kill our birds off with our Windkills... and make 100,000's of acres toxic waste lands covered by Sun heat generation farms...

    All in a vain attempt to show God who controls earth/civilization/ his creation!!! Reply With Quote
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  • Feb 25, 2021 | 16:41 5 Reply With Quote
    Feb 25, 2021 | 18:03 6 Ignore List good👍 Reply With Quote
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  • Feb 26, 2021 | 08:14 7 https://www.theguardian.com/environm...say-scientists


    Atlantic Ocean circulation at weakest in a millennium, say scientists

    Decline in system underpinning Gulf Stream could lead to more extreme weather in Europe and higher sea levels on US east coast

    Fiona Harvey Environment correspondent

    Fri 26 Feb 2021 12.06 GMT
    First published on Thu 25 Feb 2021 16.00 GMT

    The Atlantic Ocean circulation that underpins the Gulf Stream, the weather system that brings warm and mild weather to Europe, is at its weakest in more than a millennium, and climate breakdown is the probable cause, according to new data.

    Further weakening of the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) could result in more storms battering the UK, more intense winters and an increase in damaging heatwaves and droughts across Europe.

    Scientists predict that the AMOC will weaken further if global heating continues, and could reduce by about 34% to 45% by the end of this century, which could bring us close to a “tipping point” at which the system could become irrevocably unstable. A weakened Gulf Stream would also raise sea levels on the Atlantic coast of the US, with potentially disastrous consequences.

    Stefan Rahmstorf, of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, who co-authored the study published on Thursday in Nature Geoscience, told the Guardian that a weakening AMOC would increase the number and severity of storms hitting Britain, and bring more heatwaves to Europe.

    He said the circulation had already slowed by about 15%, and the impacts were being seen. “In 20 to 30 years it is likely to weaken further, and that will inevitably influence our weather, so we would see an increase in storms and heatwaves in Europe, and sea level rises on the east coast of the US,” he said.

    Rahmstorf and scientists from Maynooth University in Ireland and University College London in the UK concluded that the current weakening had not been seen over at least the last 1,000 years, after studying sediments, Greenland ice cores and other proxy data that revealed past weather patterns over that time. The AMOC has only been measured directly since 2004.

    The AMOC is one of the world’s biggest ocean circulation systems, carrying warm surface water from the Gulf of Mexico towards the north Atlantic, where it cools and becomes saltier until it sinks north of Iceland, which in turn pulls more warm water from the Caribbean. This circulation is accompanied by winds that also help to bring mild and wet weather to Ireland, the UK and other parts of western Europe.

    Scientists have long predicted a weakening of the AMOC as a result of global heating, and have raised concerns that it could collapse altogether. The new study found that any such point was likely to be decades away, but that continued high greenhouse gas emissions would bring it closer.

    Rahmstorf said: “We risk triggering [a tipping point] in this century, and the circulation would spin down within the next century. It is extremely unlikely that we have already triggered it, but if we do not stop global warming, it is increasingly likely that we will trigger it.

    “The consequences of this are so massive that even a 10% chance of triggering a breakdown would be an unacceptable risk.”

    Research in 2018 also showed a weakening of the AMOC, but the paper in Nature Geoscience says this was unprecedented over the last millennium, a clear indication that human actions are to blame. Scientists have previously said a weakening of the Gulf Stream could cause freezing winters in western Europe and unprecedented changes across the Atlantic.

    The AMOC is a large part of the Gulf Stream, often described as the “conveyor belt” that brings warm water from the equator. But the bigger weather system would not break down entirely if the ocean circulation became unstable, because winds also play a key role. The circulation has broken down before, in different circumstances, for instance at the end of the last ice age.

    The Gulf Stream is separate from the jet stream that has helped to bring extreme weather to the northern hemisphere in recent weeks, though like the jet stream it is also affected by the rising temperatures in the Arctic. Normally, the very cold temperatures over the Arctic create a polar vortex that keeps a steady jet stream of air currents keeping that cold air in place. But higher temperatures over the Arctic have resulted in a weak and wandering jet stream, which has helped cold weather to spread much further south in some cases, while bringing warmer weather further north in others, contributing to the extremes in weather seen in the UK, Europe and the US in recent weeks.

    Similarly, the Gulf Stream is affected by the melting of Arctic ice, which dumps large quantities of cold water to the south of Greenland, disrupting the flow of the AMOC. The impacts of variations in the Gulf Stream are seen over much longer periods than variations in the jet stream, but will also bring more extreme weather as the climate warms.

    As well as causing more extreme weather across Europe and the east coast of the US, the weakening of the AMOC could have severe consequences for Atlantic marine ecosystems, disrupting fish populations and other marine life.

    Andrew Meijers, the deputy science leader of polar oceans at British Antarctic Survey, who was not involved in the study, said: “The AMOC has a profound influence on global climate, particularly in North America and Europe, so this evidence of an ongoing weakening of the circulation is critical new evidence for the interpretation of future projections of regional and global climate.

    “The AMOC is frequently modelled as having a tipping point below some circulation strength, a point at which the relatively stable overturning circulation becomes unstable or even collapses. The ongoing weakening of the overturning means we risk finding that point, which would have profound and likely irreversible impacts on the climate.”

    Karsten Haustein, of the Climate Services Center in Germany, also independent of the study, said the US could be at risk of stronger hurricanes as a result of the Gulf Stream’s weakening.

    “While the AMOC won’t collapse any time soon, the authors warn that the current could become unstable by the end of this century if warming continues unabated,” he said. “It has already been increasing the risk for stronger hurricanes at the US east coast due to warmer ocean waters, as well as potentially altering circulation patterns over western Europe.”

    Dr Levke Caesar, of Maynooth University in Ireland, and the lead author of the paper, said sea level rises on the east coast of the US were another potential consequence. “The northward surface flow of the AMOC leads to a deflection of water masses to the right, away from the US east coast. This is due to Earth’s rotation that diverts moving objects such as currents to the right in the northern hemisphere and to the left in the southern hemisphere,” she said. “As the current slows down, this effect weakens and more water can pile up at the US east coast, leading to an enhanced sea level rise.” Reply With Quote
    Feb 26, 2021 | 08:30 8 A balmy -38 in coleville lake today
    Funny how ice melts at that
    Luckily it’s warming twice as fast as anywhere else Reply With Quote
  • 3 Likes


  • Feb 26, 2021 | 09:01 9 I find this stuff fascinating. I read a bunch of articles and comments on this yesterday.
    Any research that gets us closer to understanding the cycles of the AMOC, and the North Atlantic Oscillation /NAO, which have such massive effects on the climate, especially in most of Europe, Eastern Canada/US, and into the arctic, is a worthwhile endeavor.
    Even if said research is done in the name of human caused global warming, the results are still useful.
    The natural cycles of the NAO do seem to be the culprit behind the alternating cold and warm, such as the little ice age, medieval warm period all the way back.
    Natural cycles of the AMOC causing even longer term climate cycles.

    The more we can learn about these, and what circumstances predict their inevitable cycles, the better we can forecast and prepare.

    Taking it a step further, there have been proposals for massive engineering projects to deflect the gulf stream and modify the northern climates for the better. What could possible go wrong?

    I keep saying, the best outcome from all the global warming hysteria, is all the research into past and present climate, I'll even throw in the dismal failures of future climate models. When the current cooling phase is finally acknowledged, and the alarmism dies down, we will be infinitely further ahead in our knowledge of all things climate, and we can put that data to use and be much better able to predict and prepare.

    Please keep posting any similar articles you come across. Reply With Quote

  • Feb 26, 2021 | 10:26 10 The confidence of the sides is what intrigues me.

    The one relies on the slosh words of "if, could, probable, likely, unlikely, and an unacceptable chance of 10%".

    The other relies on "faith and the fear of God".

    No wonder there exist such conflict. Reply With Quote
    Feb 26, 2021 | 10:36 11 There is a side in the middle , where time will show what’s actually going on
    So far very few if any scary predictions have remotely came true .
    Problem is in the meantime the climate activists continue to ratchet up the fear factor . Reply With Quote

  • Feb 26, 2021 | 11:20 12 And to top it off Tom4Tom throws medical assistance dying which has been legal in Canada since 2016, following a landmark Supreme Court ruling a year earlier.

    Conservative MP Stephen Fletcher wrote the book" Master of My Fate. Fletcher's doctor assisted dying bills were introduced in the House of Commons in March 2014, when Harpo was still PM.

    Polls finds strong support for expanding access to medical assistance in dying amongst Canadians. But Tom4Tom knows what is right for all Canadians.

    Tom4Tom will use every opportunity to throw in his faith based believes with disingenuousness facts just to railroad threads.

    Tom4Tom the big proponent and Champion of Individual and Property rights, when it serves his purpose. Reply With Quote
    Feb 26, 2021 | 11:33 13
    Quote Originally Posted by checking View Post
    The confidence of the sides is what intrigues me.

    The one relies on the slosh words of "if, could, probable, likely, unlikely, and an unacceptable chance of 10%".

    The other relies on "faith and the fear of God".

    No wonder there exist such conflict.
    That is an interesting analysis. Not sure how accurate.
    The real scientists do acknowledge the uncertainties, but then the media, the politicians, the true believers like Chuck get ahold of it and present these things as certain facts, and declare the debate to be over. While also labeling anyone who points out the uncertainties as a denier.
    But as for the faith, and fear of God, I think you have that completely backwards. Global warming is the new religion. Just listen to the words Chuck uses, believe is one of the most used. Evidence is discarded, always deferring to having faith in the fear inducing models of the future. Always preaching future scenarios involving doom and gloom and damnation. Offering salvation if you join their church.
    Even their purgatory is very similar, hot and fiery.
    Never question the authority of the all knowing oracles at the top of the pyramid.
    Everyone who doesn't believe is a heretic, and a denier, even calling for prison and denial of rights, just like back in the Good old days when the church ruled surpreme.
    Oh, and like all religions, please send money.
    Last edited by AlbertaFarmer5; Feb 26, 2021 at 13:59.
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  • Feb 26, 2021 | 16:55 14
    Quote Originally Posted by checking View Post
    The confidence of the sides is what intrigues me.

    The one relies on the slosh words of "if, could, probable, likely, unlikely, and an unacceptable chance of 10%
    In all fairness, even the highly political IPCC reports admit the very large uncertainties, low confidence, and low probabilities buried deep in the bodies of the reports.
    However, all of that honest science is discarded In the summary for policymakers which is what The media and the politicians read, then convolute and corrupt even further.
    By the time the actual science has been disseminated out to the great unwashed masses, it comes across as being absulutely certain. And by the time an uninformed and uneducated useful idiot comes on a forum such as this to spread the gospel, he is fully convinced that we are facing an imminent apocalypse with such certain certainty that there is no room for debate.
    Last edited by AlbertaFarmer5; Feb 26, 2021 at 17:25.
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  • Feb 27, 2021 | 09:02 15 Yes there are uncertainties in the climate change models.

    But many of the posters on Agrisilly are not only skeptical of models, they are skeptical of the basic physics and science of climate change.

    And to top it all off they don't even think the recent temperature data collected by world class scientific institutions is accurate!

    For example if I post a NOAA map of the air and ocean temperature anomalies for the month of January 2021 or the year 2020 there will be numerous posts claiming they are wrong!

    Just how any farmer or layperson would think they have the global data analyzed to suggest that the maps are wrong is f..king hilarious.

    You would think that if all the claims made by world class scientific organizations are so far off the mark that there would be at least one credible scientific organization willing to point it out?

    But alas A5, the best you can come up with is a few climate change denier tidbits often taken out context and in no way do they disprove the reality of human caused climate change.

    In fact you even embarrass yourself further by suggesting that we are going to run out of CO2 if we don't burn fossil fuels! Which indicates you don't even understand the basic carbon cycle.

    How did you got an engineering degree without relying on science and evidence to back up your work? Reply With Quote
    Feb 27, 2021 | 10:13 16 Oh that’s easy
    “Everywhere is warming twice as fast as anywhere else”
    We just can’t understand why you cant think for yourself
    One thing they need to do is get their thermometers out of the cities for starters Reply With Quote

  • fjlip's Avatar Feb 27, 2021 | 10:19 17 So credible, for 50 years...

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    Keep believing while freezing Reply With Quote

  • Feb 27, 2021 | 10:34 18
    Quote Originally Posted by caseih View Post
    Oh that’s easy
    “Everywhere is warming twice as fast as anywhere else”
    We just can’t understand why you cant think for yourself
    One thing they need to do is get their thermometers out of the cities for starters
    1. Ocean temperatures are taken out of the cities.
    2. The majority of earth's warming so far has been absorbed by the oceans.
    3. It should be pretty easy for scientists to calculate the impact of urban heat islands in their analysis on land temperatures.
    3. The majority of temperature data is collected outside of cities and much of it by satellites.


    https://www.geospatialworld.net/blog...limate-change/

    How satellite imagery is crucial for monitoring climate change
    By
    Aditya Chaturvedi -
    01/30/2020


    “If you can’t measure it, you can’t manage it”, said María Fernanda Espinosa Garcés, President of the United Nations General Assembly at the COP 24 in Katowice Poland, summing up how crucial satellites are for measuring climate change.

    Satellite measurements of Earth’s temperature, greenhouse gas emissions, sea levels, atmospheric gases, dwindling ice and forest cover etc, are essential for improving the understanding of Climate change and predicting future of the Earth.

    Innovation such as miniaturization of sensors, high-speed data transfer, and upgraded storage capabilities have made satellites an integral part of the climate change mission. It is simply inconceivable to assess climate change sans insights provided by satellites. Without precise data and other inputs provided by satellites, environmentalists and scientists won’t be able to understand, analyze and predict the impact of climate change, and policymakers won’t be able to formulate effective strategies.

    Using an array of satellites, organizations like NASA, NOAA and ESA monitors ocean conditions, clouds, temperature, sea levels and heat content, to get information on how fast Earth’s temperature is changing. Reply With Quote
    Feb 27, 2021 | 10:59 19
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View Post
    That is an interesting analysis. Not sure how accurate.
    The real scientists do acknowledge the uncertainties, but then the media, the politicians, the true believers like Chuck get ahold of it and present these things as certain facts, and declare the debate to be over. While also labeling anyone who points out the uncertainties as a denier.
    But as for the faith, and fear of God, I think you have that completely backwards. Global warming is the new religion. Just listen to the words Chuck uses, believe is one of the most used. Evidence is discarded, always deferring to having faith in the fear inducing models of the future. Always preaching future scenarios involving doom and gloom and damnation. Offering salvation if you join their church.
    Even their purgatory is very similar, hot and fiery.
    Never question the authority of the all knowing oracles at the top of the pyramid.
    Everyone who doesn't believe is a heretic, and a denier, even calling for prison and denial of rights, just like back in the Good old days when the church ruled surpreme.
    Oh, and like all religions, please send money.
    Agreed, FEAR has been used to control people since the beginning of time, usually using something that one is unable to prove like religion. Maybe climate change and a certain virus should be added as well. Reply With Quote

  • fjlip's Avatar Feb 27, 2021 | 11:09 20 Chew on this hoax exposing...Older pre 1960 data is NO WAY as accurate as today's thermometers and satellites. Very hard to square the data, oh they just DELETE 30 years, ignore medieval warming, the 30's.

    https://youtu.be/K_8xd0LCeRQ
    Last edited by fjlip; Feb 27, 2021 at 11:12.
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    Feb 27, 2021 | 15:04 21 Scientists and politicians are just pissed that they can’t control the sun and find a way to tax humans for its use. Reply With Quote
    Feb 27, 2021 | 15:21 22 It sure is a good thing that the science is settled.
    Otherwise a conflicting headline such as this from a peer reviewed paper published Feb 15 would be highly problematic
    A 30-year reconstruction of the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation shows no decline
    https://os.copernicus.org/articles/17/285/2021/
    For anyone who doesn't care to read the paper. Chuck's apocalyptic story from the Guardian claims that the AMOC is weakening due to (you"ll never guess), global warming. And that this weakness is unprecedented in 1000 years.
    The paper I linked published at the same time says no weakening for the past 30 years. And further states that we only have data back to 2005, everything before that relies on models(where have we seen those before).
    How is a layman supposed to know which science to "believe" in?
    Last edited by AlbertaFarmer5; Feb 27, 2021 at 17:59.
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    Feb 27, 2021 | 15:22 23 They can think up enough revenue sources without the sun. Reply With Quote
    Feb 27, 2021 | 18:12 24
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View Post
    It sure is a good thing that the science is settled.
    Otherwise a conflicting headline such as this from a peer reviewed paper published Feb 15 would be highly problematic


    https://os.copernicus.org/articles/17/285/2021/
    For anyone who doesn't care to read the paper. Chuck's apocalyptic story from the Guardian claims that the AMOC is weakening due to (you"ll never guess), global warming. And that this weakness is unprecedented in 1000 years.
    The paper I linked published at the same time says no weakening for the past 30 years. And further states that we only have data back to 2005, everything before that relies on models(where have we seen those before).
    How is a layman supposed to know which science to "believe" in?
    That is inconvenient.

    Be interesting to see if that gets recognition or if we just keep seeing everything based of poor data from the previous study as it was key the oceans will fail theory.
    The oceans have always been the big C02 balancer, not a few million more trees.

    Big push lately on floods and cold weather caused by man made climate change.

    The heat will burn us up storey has lost it's sizzle. Reply With Quote

  • Feb 27, 2021 | 18:25 25
    Quote Originally Posted by shtferbrains View Post
    That is inconvenient.

    Big push lately on floods and cold weather caused by man made climate change.

    The heat will burn us up storey has lost it's sizzle.
    Anyone care to guess why they have moved on from pushing the heat narrative? Chuck, any ideas? Reply With Quote
  • 2 Likes


  • Feb 27, 2021 | 19:27 26
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View Post
    Anyone care to guess why they have moved on from pushing the heat narrative? Chuck, any ideas?
    Is it not foolish to think we can conclude anything about weather on this planet from the small blip we’ve recorded. Reply With Quote
  • 1 Like


  • Feb 27, 2021 | 20:14 27 Or to be arrogant or stupid enough to think man can control the weather ?
    What gets me is that there is a real pollution problem in big cities that you can see, smell ,taste and feel in most major cities and yet there worried about cow farts and shit like that
    How about they clean up their own acts and leave us alone ?
    -32 here today
    -38 in coleville lake , NT today chuck
    Not much ice meltin Reply With Quote

  • Feb 27, 2021 | 20:40 28 This will be so interesting in 5-10 years .. LOL Reply With Quote
  • 1 Like


  • Feb 28, 2021 | 08:56 29
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View Post
    It sure is a good thing that the science is settled.
    Otherwise a conflicting headline such as this from a peer reviewed paper published Feb 15 would be highly problematic


    https://os.copernicus.org/articles/17/285/2021/
    For anyone who doesn't care to read the paper. Chuck's apocalyptic story from the Guardian claims that the AMOC is weakening due to (you"ll never guess), global warming. And that this weakness is unprecedented in 1000 years.
    The paper I linked published at the same time says no weakening for the past 30 years. And further states that we only have data back to 2005, everything before that relies on models(where have we seen those before).
    How is a layman supposed to know which science to "believe" in?
    Quote" The paper I linked published at the same time says no weakening for the past 30 years." huh?


    Did you read it because it clearly says weakening has been observed between 2004 and 2012 persisting untill 2017.

    From the abstract of the paper you posted:
    A decline in Atlantic meridional overturning circulation (AMOC) strength has been observed between 2004 and 2012 by the RAPID-MOCHA-WBTS (RAPID – Meridional Overturning Circulation and Heatflux Array – Western Boundary Time Series, hereafter RAPID array) with this weakened state of the AMOC persisting until 2017. Climate model and paleo-oceanographic research suggests that the AMOC may have been declining for decades or even centuries before this; however direct observations are sparse prior to 2004, giving only “snapshots” of the overturning circulation. Previous studies have used linear models based on upper-layer temperature anomalies to extend AMOC estimates back in time; however these ignore changes in the deep circulation that are beginning to emerge in the observations of AMOC decline. Here we develop a higher-fidelity empirical model of AMOC variability based on RAPID data and associated physically with changes in thickness of the persistent upper, intermediate, and deep water masses at 26∘ N and associated transports. We applied historical hydrographic data to the empirical model to create an AMOC time series extending from 1981 to 2016. Increasing the resolution of the observed AMOC to approximately annual shows multi-annual variability in agreement with RAPID observations and shows that the downturn between 2008 and 2012 was the weakest AMOC since the mid-1980s. However, the time series shows no overall AMOC decline as indicated by other proxies and high-resolution climate models. Our results reinforce that adequately capturing changes to the deep circulation is key to detecting any anthropogenic climate-change-related AMOC decline.


    Both studies posted, rely on modeling to come up with their conclusions. In the paper you published they conclude that there was a decline in Atlantic meridional overturning circulation from 2004 -2017. But the authors note that in order to come to longer term evidence they need more data on deep circulation.

    This is an interesting an important issue because of how important the gulf stream is to climate. So that's why we need to rely on the science and not dismiss it all, like some on Agrisilly are prone to doing.

    The important take away is that the science of climate change is always evolving as new data and research is published. Let's leave it up to scientists to sort out the data and conclusions. One or two papers do not tell the whole story. The story is told by the whole body of research from many many scientist that continues to evolve.

    Here is the abstract from the paper referenced in The Guardian article:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-021-00699-z

    Current Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation weakest in last millennium

    L. Caesar, G. D. McCarthy, D. J. R. Thornalley, N. Cahill & S. Rahmstorf

    Nature Geoscience (2021)Cite this article

    Abstract

    The Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC)—one of Earth’s major ocean circulation systems—redistributes heat on our planet and has a major impact on climate. Here, we compare a variety of published proxy records to reconstruct the evolution of the AMOC since about ad 400. A fairly consistent picture of the AMOC emerges: after a long and relatively stable period, there was an initial weakening starting in the nineteenth century, followed by a second, more rapid, decline in the mid-twentieth century, leading to the weakest state of the AMOC occurring in recent decades.
    Last edited by chuckChuck; Feb 28, 2021 at 09:01.
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    Feb 28, 2021 | 09:26 30 Chuck, I am really impressed. You actually read the paper, you actually took the effort to understand it, you didn't just attack the source, the website, the authors, or the poster.

    If you would take this approach every time, we could have civil constructive discussions on these topics.

    Thank you. Genuinely.
    These are discussions worth having, and research that has important implications. I think we are on the brink of having enough data and enough computing power to be able start making useful long long term forecasts based on these indicators.

    Your bold missed some important statements though.

    . Increasing the resolution of the observed AMOC to approximately annual shows multi-annual variability in agreement with RAPID observations and shows that the downturn between 2008 and 2012 was the weakest AMOC since the mid-1980s. However, the time series shows no overall AMOC decline as indicated by other proxies and high-resolution climate models
    Like all things climate, it is cyclical. As noted, the alarmist papers took a very short time series and extrapolated it back in time linearly. The second paper correlates the recent cycle with other proxy data and shows that there is nothing unprecedented about this short term weakening phase, it is all part of the "mulit annual variability". Which is to say, you can't cherry pick a 4 year period of weakening, and extend that linear trend back in time beyond where there is data. Reply With Quote