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Feels good to be done. Now the hard part, to market this crop

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Sep 19, 2020 | 18:00 1 So farma others or all what does this mean , obviously I’m stating the obvious but some nuts and bolts for me.

So all of you store 100% on farm yes or no?

As you harvest you have rough idea of grade moisture protein test weight before you store so in theory you know your product yes no?

Most of you do NOT pre sell it seems yes no?

So use you farma wheat hits a price that tickles your fancy and bank balalance do then ring broker company what ever lock in price then they test and you get plus or minus depending on quality yes or no?

Can you deliver ASAP or it’s priced quality checked you deliver at a later date or both?

So it’s not like our cumbersome at times pricey system of harvest grain gone a few hours later into elevator system graded and can be priced or you can warehouse it free storage until March 1. You can disclose your tonnes to buyers if you choose. But buyers always know unsold tonnes in a elevator and grade in total but not individually up to grower to disclose.

If harvest takes say 5 weeks here you can harvest price and sell all in that time frame.

Me I go for domestic market bit trickier but worth it in 70% of years.

There are no let’s call it inland storage terminals across Canada that hold 300,000 plus tonne owned by corporates or farmers for that matter?

Farmers banding together here building there own inland terminals rather than on farm. Meaning 200 farmers put in 40 k each mostly bunker sites which don’t work in your climate and of course you guys can’t unload sites 24/7 12 months of the year.

Sorry for dumb questions even dumb post but no worse than some threads on here at times.....yeah yeah I’m guilty as well Reply With Quote
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  • Sep 19, 2020 | 18:10 2 Edit again you can haul into USA if you want? Forget about Covid or freight cuts it out that way as well.

    Ps a lot of elevators here have been sold to end users working well Reply With Quote
    Sep 19, 2020 | 19:28 3 I will reply with my two cents later but in the mean time it would be nice to hear from others.

    This is a marketing forum isn't it? Reply With Quote

  • Sep 19, 2020 | 19:59 4
    Quote Originally Posted by farmaholic View Post
    I will reply with my two cents later but in the mean time it would be nice to hear from others.

    This is a marketing forum isn't it?
    Not asking for financials sell price or top secret info just logistics from harvest to sale. And your selling options Reply With Quote
    Sep 19, 2020 | 21:49 5 We have presold about 40% of our oats at $2.85
    Delivered right from combine
    Presold about 20% feed barley for $3.90 and delivered from combine
    We normally do this for space reasons but this year 33 % of our acres(peas,canola) were plowed down from hail so bin space not a problem
    Also have a bagger for last resort on normal year
    Have about 50-60 bu/ac storage which is not nearly enough most years
    Presold 30% of our nexera with act of god , pisspoor price now , $12.80 i think
    Werent smart enough to presell any wheat or even sell the last 20% of out old crop wheat for that matter
    As i said before am a pisspoor marketer
    I Listen closely to 101 Reply With Quote
    Sep 19, 2020 | 22:19 6 So a fair bit of your grain sold domestically case? Reply With Quote
    Sep 19, 2020 | 23:08 7 We try to have enough bin space to store our whole crop. We really don't rent any meaningful amount of land so its not like we have to have storage for acres we don't own. In yesrs of bumper crop we might move bins of grain that aren't full, or rent bins from neighbours who quit farming and their tenants use bags or move it to market off the combine.

    Since there is alot of rented land in the area, grain bags have become very popular. For a land owning farmer, I think they are a temporary solution to a long term problem. But they definitely have their time and place.

    There really are no "community" bunkers we can store grain in and have Merchants buy tonnes from. There was a push for farmer owned Inland Terminals, but many(or all) had major GrainCo affiliation because of the nature of Canada's grain market. Many have been sold to major GrainCos who do business in Canada.

    So bins it is in the Ghetto, I feel it gives me marketing power if I can afford to sit on it(keep possession of the grain). Although I then assume the storage risk.

    As for loading and moving grain....winter makes the job harder but it never really stops except for the most extreme cold conditions..... although winter does slow pace down in my opinion. Image trying to haul grain in minus 30 something temperatures..... not fit for man or machine.... very hard on both.

    As for pre-selling, I don't do much at all. But did pre-price some canola before it was harvested this year. I don't like pre-selling grains that are prone to weather downgrading because premiums and discounts aren't written into those contracts and if downgrading occurs you are stuck with the contracting Company..... even if you could get a better grade and price somewhere else. Imagine the Buyer also grading the grain they are buying from you..... might be biased. But there is always the option of using the Canadian Grain Commission to settle grading disputes.

    I hate target price agreements. That's where you offer your grain at a certain price to a buyer on a contract..... and it just sits there until THEY decide to accept it, but you can cancel the contract at any time. I think you should be able to offer the same grain to multiple buyers using target price agreements at the same time, and in the unlikely chance they both or all accept the contract at the same time....you get to decide who you want to sell it to. That would promote more realistic competition for the same grain. Too one sided the way it is today(our commodity orgs should be working to have this changed)

    Every farm is different and does what works for them based on cash flow needs and how much risk they want to take on.
    GrainCos try to entice delivery of grain but leave the pricing risk with the grower. I don't like that. They are in control of their own basis deductions in a futures first contract and if you do a basis first contract your at the mercy of the futures market. Either way the grain is in the buyers hands and you are left with the pricing risk.....anything wrong with that picture. Some people might be ok with it but I'm not.

    I like to keep possession and control of my grain until I sell it. In the event I do pre-price in advance it will be a small percentage of expected production, but I seldom do any. Some production contracts have Act of God clauses that get you off the hook in the event of a production problem.

    There is probably lots more that could be said.... Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 01:01 8 Often here in October new crop prices good, USA harvest done Canadian done and EU. Black Sea.

    If there are production queries prices often spike just before Australian harvest, out tonnes unknown once h rvest starts and yields kno wn prices either stay stable or fall. Then at end of harvest a lull until feb March.

    Droughts throw that theory out just keeps heading north all harvest.

    Seems like we’re spoilt here a bit on farm storage , elevator storage 28 kms away think 100,000 tonne all grades plus two so huge feed mills and feedlots dairies es piggeries Poultry

    Why did elevators shut across Canada from memory when I was there in 83 was starting to rationalize and kaput what 10 years later?
    Last edited by malleefarmer; Sep 20, 2020 at 01:03.
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    Sep 20, 2020 | 01:11 9 So back to original question, in a months time you decide to sell 400 tonne of wheat to buyer A mid October let’s say it’s October 20 when do you shift grain that’s buyers call or depends how bad they want it.

    Let’s say this is a cracking price could also mean another 150 farmers selling 400 tonne.

    Are there logistic issues first in first serve deliver to a elevator

    For argument presume I’m talking export so goes out of a port somewhere.

    Weeks to wait or more?

    I’m sure 90% of farmers on here have no cash flow issues as I often here lock the bins. But sometime you need cold hard spondoolee Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 05:35 10 Mostly buyer's call Mallee. GrainCos aren't always taking all grains all the time. Some even try to "schedule" their deliveries based on what they need.. Besides trying to schedule which grains they are taking they try and schedule who can haul which days so everyone doesn't try to haul on the ssme days. "Orderly marketing".... lol.

    The elevator consolidation was necessary in my mind, the old system became antiquated. Too many small high maintenance wooden elevators that were only able to load small batches of grain cars at a time. The amount of rail available to park and move cars on was also a limiting factor as well as the amount of grain the facility could store. Even some bigger first generation elevators/terminals that were built after the standard old wooden structures are being closed. The system evolved into high through-put, larger unit train loading facilities.....efficiency, but hard on the road infrastructure because alot of highways weren't build to handle that much heavy truck traffic.

    Logistics..... from farm to port is something. Co-ordination important. Weather even affects it.

    To me, I'm blind to the domestic market. To me it's limited compared to the amount of grain grown so most is exported.
    Other than a bit of malt, feed grain to feed mills and feed lots, the domestic market is minimal in my mind. Has anyone sold direct to a flour mill? No pasta plants. I guess we do have a domestic canola crushing industry 👍.
    Last edited by farmaholic; Sep 20, 2020 at 05:48.
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    Sep 20, 2020 | 05:50 11 I wish someone else would chime in and give you their opinion. Their experience and thoughts might be different than mine. Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 06:21 12
    Quote Originally Posted by farmaholic View Post
    I wish someone else would chime in and give you their opinion. Their experience and thoughts might be different than mine.
    Guess it’s off topic........

    Must be hard at times, you can almost almost sell grain 24/7 here during harvest. Different than you guys.

    Local feed mills open 24/6 for deliveries.

    I envy you guys on lots of things in awe at times but marketing selling grain don’t envy that.

    Thought might be more discussion no secret means business just the process.

    Guess guys in eastern provinces way different how they do things. Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 06:39 13
    Quote Originally Posted by malleefarmer View Post
    So a fair bit of your grain sold domestically case?
    canola yes to crushers
    oats lots domestic and lots to US
    i think a lot of feed barley ends up in southern alberta
    most canary to MX Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 06:43 14
    Quote Originally Posted by malleefarmer View Post
    Guess it’s off topic........

    Must be hard at times, you can almost almost sell grain 24/7 here during harvest. Different than you guys.

    Local feed mills open 24/6 for deliveries.

    I envy you guys on lots of things in awe at times but marketing selling grain don’t envy that.

    Thought might be more discussion no secret means business just the process.

    Guess guys in eastern provinces way different how they do things.
    they're open lots here if they need it, not so much if they don't
    they sure as hell need it this year Reply With Quote
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  • Blaithin's Avatar Sep 20, 2020 | 07:29 15 Elevators can’t fill up on shit they don’t need for a few trains.

    I’m in feedlot alley so more domestic use around here. Barley and wheat to feedlots. Barley to Calgary for malt. Some Wheat to Calgary for flour. Some Wheat to Calgary for malt.

    Peas aren’t very domestic. Lots of peas sold off combine around here.

    Most wheat and canola is exported. Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 08:02 16
    Quote Originally Posted by caseih View Post
    they're open lots here if they need it, not so much if they don't
    they sure as hell need it this year
    Farmers same way in a way if we need cash it’s gotta go get sold. Interest rates and bad credit destroy farms.
    The 35 bushel average canola which I think I is high estimate you ve got some areas where 59 to 60 were realized which means there also has to be a lot of 15 to 20 bushel areas. And that’s a big problem when the stability program is complete garbage. Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 08:15 17 mallee, on our place we store all and do not presell. If we need immediate cash flow, there is a govt advance program we use, or its some canola that gets moved after harvest to reduce storage risk.

    Canadians are very touchy about where they store a crop. They would never let it sit in some bunker somewhere. We learned those lessons when the CWB had us all by the nuts. Now its farmer controlled as far as we can take it.

    We also have to be aware of the impending winter. Nobody likes cleaning out bins in -40 weather and 4 ft of snow and thats most of january and feb around here and we all want to be in Florida at that time.

    We can sell to the US but right now its limited. Mostly cereals going down there. Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 08:26 18
    Quote Originally Posted by jazz View Post
    mallee, on our place we store all and do not presell. If we need immediate cash flow, there is a govt advance program we use, or its some canola that gets moved after harvest to reduce storage risk.

    Canadians are very touchy about where they store a crop. They would never let it sit in some bunker somewhere. We learned those lessons when the CWB had us all by the nuts. Now its farmer controlled as far as we can take it.

    We also have to be aware of the impending winter. Nobody likes cleaning out bins in -40 weather and 4 ft of snow and thats most of january and feb around here and we all want to be in Florida at that time.

    We can sell to the US but right now its limited. Mostly cereals going down there.
    Farmers don’t control anything. They take it when they want it. Reply With Quote
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  • Sep 20, 2020 | 08:33 19
    Quote Originally Posted by the big wheel View Post
    Farmers don’t control anything. They take it when they want it.
    My thoughts exactly and the fact people think they control anything by building storage for the graincos is incredibly stupid.....you have just added risk and cost to your farm ...when you have finished harvest why add additional cost whether it be a bag or bin to your farm...

    The fact that graincos want to throttle or orifice the grain movement in this country at farmers expense is bewildering at best....I just do not understand...


    Why don't the graincos build the storage to move their capacity rating of an elevator spot to once a year and see how it works out for them...
    Last edited by bucket; Sep 20, 2020 at 08:40.
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  • Sep 20, 2020 | 08:44 20 Store it all here too. Rarely pre price a bit. Farmers have zero control. Your grain goes when the buyer says so. This lack of control, and having had to wait many months on several occasions to cash out on contracted grain, is a huge part of me changing my farm to sheep. Not having any control whatsoever on when the buyer will finally say yes, is just so ridiculous, yet we farmers think somehow we are “marketing” our grain. We aren’t marketing our grain, we are accepting the “best” price that the buyers offer at the time. Zero control.

    We are in a high pig barn region. It often makes more sense to grow feed grains for them, no dockage, no shrink, a bit of a moisture break, competetive prices, no grading factor nightmares. Lol so lots of guys here just grow high yielding feed varieties rather than try to get grain to grade good in this wet zone, of number one wheat near impossibility.

    Now, try being a smaller grain farmer in western Canada, especially one that is first generation. The odds are stacked so high against you, and grain “marketing” is no exception. If I have say a hundred tonnes of oats booked in, and my neighbor has two thousand tonnes booked, who do you think they call first? If one doesn’t own a semi to haul his grain, you have to get it custom hauled. Fine, except lately getting a trucker to come get your two or three loads is hard to do even, when he gets bookings for twenty, or fifty loads from the bigger farmers. Who is he going to get all excited about hauling for? Zero control just went to negative ten control. Now the elevator wants your grain, good luck finding a truck to haul for you! Lol

    Some guys love grain farming, have done great at it. That is just peachy. But the way things have gone regarding grain farming the last ten years or so, at least personally, has sucked the life out of me and my family. I love the growing, I love the soil, I love the doing of grain farming. I simply have grown to hate the lack of control, the costs, the risk, the multiple bad years in a row, etc.

    So we made the move the regain control.

    The great news, is that this farm is not on its last generation, because we have figured out ways to make a smaller farm feasible. Kind of hitting two threads with this post.

    Sorry for rambling. The way I see it anyway! Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 08:49 21 canadian farmers can not compete against the fact that american farmers have received the equivalent of 75 billion canadian dollars since Trump has been in power...


    If using equity to compete against it.... good for you...eventually no amount of volume will allow farmers in canada to buy million dollar combines....because the dealers won't be able to handle the risk of the trades.... Reply With Quote
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  • Sep 20, 2020 | 08:54 22
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepwheat View Post
    Now, try being a smaller grain farmer in western Canada, especially one that is first generation.
    I am in that boat sheep and I havent seen that experience but it may be my location. We have 5 terminals within a 30 minute haul so there is plenty of choice.

    The way to hammer those guys at the terminal is to sell when they are standing around twiddling their thumbs and that time isnt after harvest. We often are hauling the same time we are seeding and spraying. I sold last yrs lentils in July when there were none left in storage.

    The best time to market last yrs crop is when the next one is just getting out of the ground. Reply With Quote
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  • Sep 20, 2020 | 08:56 23
    Quote Originally Posted by jazz View Post
    I am in that boat sheep and I havent seen that experience but it may be my location. We have 5 terminals within a 30 minute haul so there is plenty of choice.

    The way to hammer those guys at the terminal is to sell when they are standing around twiddling their thumbs and that time isnt after harvest. We often are hauling the same time we are seeding and spraying. I sold last yrs lentils in July when there were none left in storage.

    The best time to market last yrs crop is when the next one is just getting out of the ground.
    My local has been twiddling their thumbs for weeks ...sitting plugged and on purpose....to throttle their movement but what they haven't learnt yet is their customers are leaving and that grain won't be back this year.....and maybe not next year either...
    Last edited by bucket; Sep 20, 2020 at 08:59.
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    Sep 20, 2020 | 14:47 24 [QUOTE=jazz;466076]mallee, on our place we store all and do not presell. If we need immediate cash flow, there is a govt advance program we use, or its some canola that gets moved after harvest to reduce storage risk.

    Govt advance programme must come at a cost? Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 15:06 25
    Quote Originally Posted by malleefarmer View Post
    Govt advance programme must come at a cost?
    Interest free for first $100K, prime rate for the rest up to $1M. Basically free money from the govt for 12months. Crazy not to use it. Reply With Quote
    helmsdale's Avatar Sep 20, 2020 | 17:04 26 In mine and Dad's case, we can store and "average" crop, which as I have highlighted to many on here, is considered a failure to many... ~84,000 bushels storage. 18,000 of in floor aeration.

    Most years I try to find a price point for yellow peas that I like in the end of June, beginning of July based upon about 50% of expected production. We like to keep a minimum of 5000bu of peas for seed and either hold the remainder into next year, or if there is a super b load we sell it after seed is cleaned. If conditions look decent to the same, or expected production increases, then I'll increase that amount to about 75% the middle of July if price has held. It can get a little hectic around harvest as Im trying to harvest, and haul to the elevator, which this year was 120 miles away. We have 7 locations within a 120 mile radius(not counting the one 30 miles from home which as far as I'm concerned doesnt even exist!) Hauling a load of peas every morning, then harvesting during the day makes for very minimal sleep at night, especially when you have a harvest baby...

    This is the first year I have stuck my neck out and pre-priced any Durum. I've dealt with the current retailer long enough now to know that they are straight up. Priced a #1CWAD 13.0Px, while it was flowering at best, and for probably 2/3 of expected production. Typically I would store it and start marketing post harvest, but the price was "appealing", and I knew that even if we didn't see another rain, which we didn't, I would be putting grain on the ground.

    Traditionally, all CWRS goes into the bin, and marketing starts post-harvest.

    Yellow Mustard was grown based on a production contract that said if it graded a #1, the first 15bu would be called before Jan 1, if it graded lower than a #1, it would be called prior to July 1 the following year, which gives me the time necessary to upgrade it if necessary. I had that provision wrote in.

    I also grow general purpose AC Pasteur, which is a HRS wheat that in lower moisture years is generally bought as a specialty contract for US and domestic millers if falling numbers and protein are sufficient, and in years of high moisture(rare around here), where protein is low, it ends up in the feed market. Because of the absolute uncertainty of protein content, and falling numbers, this is stored and decisions made post harvest based upon representative samples.

    For this area, binning is really the only option. There is only one elevator within 30 miles that has just barely enough storage for a 50 car spot, and hauling at harvest time to the other 7 locations even if they did have bunker storage just isnt an option unless you're willing to hire the hauling out to custom operators.

    Even on the best of years, all production comes home to the yard, and when bins are full it starts going on the ground. Roughly 1/4 of the yard is wide open grass meant to park machinery on or store grain if necessary. I generally dump into 25,000-30,000bu piles that fit underneath a plastic silage cover. I have enough 11-24.5 tire casings laying around from years of commerical trucking that I space them about 3 feet apart on the base of the pile and then can open up, haul out, and close again if weather goes to shit while hauling, or the elevator shuts you down.

    As a rule, the elevators I deal with are good about taking grain during the contracted time-frame. If they phuck me without REAL GOOD CAUSE, I just go shopping elsewhere. 120+ mile hauls really don't scare me... If you want to haul your own grain, and you dont want to be beholden to the local elevator, you have to get used to pulling long distances. 10 years of running all around western north america with bulkers might make me unique in my willingness to haul long distances, so long as the premium is there...

    Anyway, thats the way things look around this operation Mallee. Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 17:27 27 Lightning strikes a marketing thread two it stayed on track

    Great to see.

    Harvest rule of marketing here if it’s over $285 on farm wheat sell its in top 92% of prices feed barley $245 same gig.

    Unless it’s a rip snorting drought

    Edit harvest moves from west to east here, gotta watch yields in WA our biggest producing state export based as well. Can kinda put a floor in things and domestic then price above to accumulate grain
    Last edited by malleefarmer; Sep 20, 2020 at 17:32.
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    Sep 20, 2020 | 17:54 28
    Quote Originally Posted by malleefarmer View Post
    Not asking for financials sell price or top secret info just logistics from harvest to sale. And your selling options
    We generally try to sell 20-30% off combine
    Sometimes we will pre price well ahead , times like this year we are pricing as we go .
    Many reasons for each farm
    For us we needed to wait to see quality and yield before we dared to pre sell too much . 80% of our farm had hail so too much was unknown before combines got going .
    Barley was good quality and triode decent coffee the ground it was on. We sold er all to a local P&H for October delivery for Special Select .
    $4.75 if it made grade , $4.25 in not .
    Wheat ,we just sold what would not fit in bin , price for #1 , 13.5 pro or better is not nearly enough so 90% is binned . Just have 35 ac left of hailed out wheat that we could not finish this morning before rains set in
    Canola , we pre sold 10 bus / ac for cash flow , it’s gone plus another 15,000 bus we got a “premium” on as a local elevator had to fill a train ASAP and had no canola in elevator..... and could not find any ..... imagine that
    The rest will be stored and play the game I guess.
    If we get a deal that works for us now that we know what we have we will let er go , maybe all of it . That’s the beauty of the free market, if you don’t like the price , wait , take cash advance , sell only what is necessary to cover cash flow and carry on . If we wish to sell er all and price is right there are several elevators in area , someone will take er .
    Last edited by furrowtickler; Sep 21, 2020 at 15:19.
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    Sep 20, 2020 | 19:44 29 Why would an elevator order cars with no product to fill or even find to fill? Do they do the same with boats then just charge dumurage back to farmers one way or another? Reply With Quote
    Sep 20, 2020 | 19:55 30
    Quote Originally Posted by walterm View Post
    Why would an elevator order cars with no product to fill or even find to fill? Do they do the same with boats then just charge dumurage back to farmers one way or another?
    Take that one step further, has the GrainCo even bought the grain to put in those cars and ships yet? How much business is written on speculation the handling company can source(buy) the grain needed at the sold contracted price?

    Why won't anyone ever comment on this? Is the question that schtoopit that it doesn't warrant a response? Reply With Quote
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