Level 2 power alert in AB last night.

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Level 2 power alert in AB last night.

Jan 19, 2020 | 12:47 61
Quote Originally Posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View Post
Grassfarmer, we have real time data to use. Why bring up future forecasts(like you did yesterday) , and now an 8 year old letter about an event 24 years ago, in an attempt to refute actual present time up to the date facts?

Or is it all a grand conspiracy on the part of AESO and the entire supply and demand report is a fabrication to give them an excuse to drive electricity prices higher? It seems quite transparent to me, I can't find anything similar for other jurisdictions I have checked.

On another positive note, as the temp keeps warming up(and demand keeps dropping) the wind is blowing, wind energy is up to 70% of nameplate capacity. Some are close to capacity, and only two out of 23 are still reading 0.
Ab5 I think what galls me the most is the people who unequivocally support wind and solar refuse to admit that time periods exist like the last week when it doesn't work, period.

The question for me is this, there is no doubt we will need higher levels of electricity production in the future, so what is the most dependable and with the smallest footprint on the environment? Let's say we needed an additional 1000 megawatts I would say there are 4 alternatives:
A. A 1000 megawatt combined cycle natural gas fired generation facility like the proposed Genesee 4&5
B. A 1000 megawatt wind farm, backed up by a 1000 megawatt solar farm, backed up by a 1000 megawatt natural gas facility.
C. A 1000 megawatt hydroelectric dam
D. A 1000 megawatt nuclear generation facility
I have no doubt that there are those that say nuclear would be to expensive but would it really be as expensive as option B? There are those that say the way I have charactized option B as ridiculous but is it really after going through the last week. Chuck always talks about how solar is the cheapest option but is it really? Is is really best for the environment that you must build three forms of generation, string powerlines from 3 facilities instead of one? Grassfarmer claims I am against wind and solar, as I have stated before I have absolutely no problem with wind and solar when you accept its limitations, what I have a problem with is those who believe wind and solar have no limitations!!!!!
Last edited by Hamloc; Jan 19, 2020 at 14:55.
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  • fjlip's Avatar Jan 19, 2020 | 13:37 62 There is disagreement on payback...of course a manufacturer, VESTAS will make a positive case. I would need to see the "peer reviewed calculations" not a BIASED statement.

    The full quote from the book is:

    “The concept of net energy must also be applied to renewable sources of energy, such as windmills and photovoltaics. A two-megawatt windmill contains 260 tonnes of steel requiring 170 tonnes of coking coal and 300 tonnes of iron ore, all mined, transported and produced by hydrocarbons. The question is: how long must a windmill generate energy before it creates more energy than it took to build it? At a good wind site, the energy payback day could be in three years or less; in a poor location, energy payback may be never. That is, a windmill could spin until it falls apart and never generate as much energy as was invested in building it.” Reply With Quote
    Jan 19, 2020 | 20:25 63
    Quote Originally Posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View Post
    ..... an 8 year old letter about an event 24 years ago....
    If you'd bothered to read it you'd have understood it was an 8 year old letter about what was happening 8 years ago - but more to the point were you even aware of this occurring at the time as it explains why AB electricity bills are so high? For that matter has anything changed or does this system still operate in the same manner today, 8 years on from Joe's expose? Reply With Quote
    Jan 19, 2020 | 22:40 64
    Quote Originally Posted by grassfarmer View Post
    If you'd bothered to read it you'd have understood it was an 8 year old letter about what was happening 8 years ago - but more to the point were you even aware of this occurring at the time as it explains why AB electricity bills are so high? For that matter has anything changed or does this system still operate in the same manner today, 8 years on from Joe's expose?

    Alberta power is less than Saskatchewan.


    Be thankful we have an over abundance of hydro here Reply With Quote
    Jan 20, 2020 | 09:00 65 Hamloc you will not admit that wind power has a fit on the prairies either. Saskpower and North Dakota prove you wrong.

    We know it is an intermittent power supply. Everybody knows it. But that doesn't stop it from providing lots of electricity in the mix of other sources. Over 25% in North Dakota! Reply With Quote

  • Jan 20, 2020 | 09:14 66
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckChuck View Post
    Hamloc you will not admit that wind power has a fit on the prairies either. Saskpower and North Dakota prove you wrong.

    We know it is an intermittent power supply. Everybody knows it. But that doesn't stop it from providing lots of electricity in the mix of other sources. Over 25% in North Dakota!
    Chuck are you unable to read? In an above post I said "I have no problem with wind and solar when you accept its limitations, what I have a problem with is those who believe wind and solar have no limitations." So yes add wind to the power mix but remember for ever megawatt of wind energy you require and install you must build an equivelent megawatt of alternative generation to supply power when the wind doesn't blow. When this is factored wind energy is no longer that cheap! Reply With Quote
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  • Jan 20, 2020 | 09:22 67
    Quote Originally Posted by grassfarmer View Post
    If you'd bothered to read it you'd have understood it was an 8 year old letter about what was happening 8 years ago - but more to the point were you even aware of this occurring at the time as it explains why AB electricity bills are so high? For that matter has anything changed or does this system still operate in the same manner today, 8 years on from Joe's expose?
    First off, I always have the respect to another posters time and efforts to read what they post before responding. And after all the times I have called out Chuck not doing that, and often not even reading his own links and cut and pastes, I am not about to be a hypocrite and do the same.

    But I thought you were using this to try to prove your previous point, to either discredit me as a dumb farmer who isn't smart enough to read numbers on a web page, or to prove that AESO is fabricating the numbers a part of an agenda to drive up electricity costs. The fact that their own wind power forecast is reasonably accurate, at least in the pattern, if not exact on the amplitude, seems to indicate that they are not fabricating the numbers.

    Not sure how to respond to your assertion that Albertans are paying too much for power:

    https://www.oeb.ca/_html/performance..._totalbill.php

    Ontario Hydro has Alberta's big cities ranked as 4 and 5th out of 28 NA cities for the cheapest all in electricity bills. That doesn't sound like a very effective conspiracy to over charge. Especially when you consider how little Hydro we have compared to many others on the list. Reply With Quote
    Jan 20, 2020 | 12:24 68 That's an old story (2017) AB5, how will AB rates be affected going forward with the removal of the price cap? Besides that's only half the story - the energy charge - what about the transmission charges etc that really add to power bills in AB?
    I obviously haven't paid a power bill in AB for coming on 5 years but the costs were astronomical then compared to what we moved to in MB. How about someone post a power bill from each province to see how they compare?

    My last bill here for the farm (yard only, excluding house so it's the small business rate) usage was 560 kw/h with an energy charge of 9c/kw/h plus a $20.09 "basic charge" for service made a total of $70.56 before GST/PST. Reply With Quote

  • ajl
    Jan 20, 2020 | 14:49 69 My December bill was $192.59 before GST for 651 Kw. Basic farmyard including house in REA territory. Have NG for heat in house. REA is very expensive because of redundant distribution costs. Actual power charge was 7.98 cents/KWh Reply With Quote
    Jan 20, 2020 | 17:01 70
    Quote Originally Posted by grassfarmer View Post
    My last bill here for the farm (yard only, excluding house so it's the small business rate) usage was 560 kw/h with an energy charge of 9c/kw/h plus a $20.09 "basic charge" for service made a total of $70.56 before GST/PST.
    Sask has higher rates because it has 10 times the transmission lines that MB does, and covers a much larger geographic area with a smaller per km population. 90% of MB population around Winnipeg. Plus it serves remote industrial customers that MB doesn't have like oil and potash. It also interlinks into the AB system so it gets some of that free market AESO action and it exports nothing to the US, sometimes imports. .

    The two systems are drastically different.
    Last edited by jazz; Jan 20, 2020 at 17:13.
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    Jan 20, 2020 | 17:12 71
    Quote Originally Posted by ajl View Post
    My December bill was $192.59 before GST for 651 Kw. Basic farmyard including house in REA territory. Have NG for heat in house. REA is very expensive because of redundant distribution costs. Actual power charge was 7.98 cents/KWh
    Thank you, that's about what I suspected ajl based on what it was when I moved here - your total cost in AB is 29.5 cents versus 12.5c in MB reflective of the extra transmission costs.

    Now it would be interesting to hear from the other provinces. Reply With Quote
    Jan 20, 2020 | 18:59 72
    Quote Originally Posted by grassfarmer View Post
    Besides that's only half the story - the energy charge - what about the transmission charges etc that really add to power bills in AB?
    No, that is total monthly bill, including all transmission etc charges. I am surprised we are that close to cities in Quebec, Manitoba and BC, considering they are mainly hydro and virtually no "renewables", and we are mainly fossil fuels, with increasingly expensive renewables.

    Going forward, I think it is safe to say costs will go up in AB, there is another solar farm going up east of me, and more wind farms coming online. Reply With Quote
    Jan 20, 2020 | 19:06 73
    Quote Originally Posted by grassfarmer View Post
    Thank you, that's about what I suspected ajl based on what it was when I moved here - your total cost in AB is 29.5 cents versus 12.5c in MB reflective of the extra transmission costs.

    Now it would be interesting to hear from the other provinces.
    Grassfarmer, central Alberta. October 1499 kwh. $290.80 so 19.84 a kwh all in
    November 1366 kwh $296.61 so 21.71 a kwh all in
    Not sure why October was cheaper per kilowatt didn't take the time to analyze the differences in the bill, I am on a fixed price for generation of 6.79 cents a kilowatt. Reply With Quote
    Jan 20, 2020 | 19:12 74 All in price of 0.1746 per kWh in Dec Reply With Quote
    Jan 20, 2020 | 19:54 75
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamloc View Post
    Grassfarmer, central Alberta. October 1499 kwh. $290.80 so 19.84 a kwh all in
    November 1366 kwh $296.61 so 21.71 a kwh all in
    Not sure why October was cheaper per kilowatt didn't take the time to analyze the differences in the bill, I am on a fixed price for generation of 6.79 cents a kilowatt.
    So quite a variation in AB prices it seems?
    Here are some of the reasons why the prices are increasing Hamloc:

    http://https://energyrates.ca/why-alberta-electricity-bills-are-getting-higher-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/ Reply With Quote
    Feb 29, 2020 | 18:13 76 Again, to show that some of us are not just here to bash renewables, some good news.

    I've still been watching the AESO supply and demand report occasionally. It got really windy today at home, so I checked, and wind power has been consistently around 1500 out of 1781 potential MW production. 3 wind farms appear to be offline showing zeros, while the rest are at or near full capacity. Quite impressive, and consistent.

    Over the past few weeks, wind seems to spend most days around 1000 to 1200 MW's, with regular and often precipitous drops down into the 100 to 300 range.

    One good thing to come out of this is a new appreciation for living where we do. I can't stand wind, and it seems I live in the right place, when it is dead calm here, the Halkirk wind farm always seems to be putting out, and many others are way up. Only had a few brief windy hours here this winter, probably at a low risk for installing any turbines nearby. Reply With Quote
    brs
    Feb 29, 2020 | 18:34 77 I was wondering why my saskpower bill seems to be going higher and higher, wanted to blame carbon tax totally but looked at a feb 2016 bill vs feb 2020 bill and basic charge is up 12.4% as did the cost of the electricity. Wish I could get a 3% increase every year. Carbon tax still pisses me off. Reply With Quote
    Feb 29, 2020 | 18:52 78 You might be interested in this Wiki about Eldon Musk and Solar City;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SolarCity Reply With Quote
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  • Mar 1, 2020 | 10:32 79 It seems that my praise of wind energy yesterday was premature. As of now, it is down to 66 MW. Only 5% of what it was 12 hours ago. But thanks to wind only producing a token portion of our electricity in AB, the lights are still on, only the prices went up. I see Germany just enjoyed widespread blackouts thanks to a big windstorms effect on wind power output. Reply With Quote
    Mar 1, 2020 | 15:51 80
    Quote Originally Posted by shtferbrains View Post
    You might be interested in this Wiki about Eldon Musk and Solar City;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SolarCity
    Did anyone else read the section about all of the frauds, litigation, corruption, bribery, making false claims about payback and falsifying numbers? Sounds like a good upstanding company... Reply With Quote
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  • Mar 1, 2020 | 15:53 81 Since I checked mid morning, wind generation has increased by a mere 24 times, while solar has gone from 0 to almost full name plate capacity(infinite increase). If only demand could do the same on a warm sunny day, then this would be an ideal system. Reply With Quote