Level 2 power alert in AB last night.

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Level 2 power alert in AB last night.

blackpowder's Avatar Jan 14, 2020 | 16:02 1 Just saying.... Reply With Quote
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  • Jan 14, 2020 | 16:11 2
    Quote Originally Posted by blackpowder View Post
    Just saying....
    Not familiar with this term...just a little explanation for clarity .. Reply With Quote
    Jan 14, 2020 | 17:38 3 https://globalnews.ca/news/6409805/alberta-electricity-emergency-alerts-january-13/ Reply With Quote
    Jan 14, 2020 | 20:01 4
    Quote Originally Posted by bucket View Post
    Not familiar with this term...just a little explanation for clarity ..
    It means that it is one level away from having to start shutting off power to end users due to lack of generation.
    and low wind in the province, triggered two energy emergency alerts.
    And this is the result when wind is only providing under 5% of Alberta's electricity. And solar is up to 0.025% of the total. Scale that up to double digits and guess what happens.

    I've been watching AESO the past few days. Wind has never gotten above single digits utilization compared to its nameplate capacity. And spent most of the time around 3 to 4%. Which works out to 0.3% of the total generation. One day at noon, solar did briefly produce enough to show up on the report. otherwise it has been 0. Reply With Quote
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  • blackpowder's Avatar Jan 14, 2020 | 20:26 5 I do apologise for being an instigator prick. But I couldn't let that headline go unnoticed. We can choose not to post here. Or admin can send me to the penalty box lol.
    Stay warm and keep plowing Mother Earth. Reply With Quote
    fjlip's Avatar Jan 14, 2020 | 20:38 6 We need 100 times more wind turbines and solar panels! Quick call China, CC is paying...with your money... Reply With Quote
    Jan 14, 2020 | 21:05 7
    Quote Originally Posted by fjlip View Post
    We need 100 times more wind turbines and solar panels! Quick call China, CC is paying...with your money...
    Let's explore what the end result is when we do the math on your statement Fjlip. At present the wind farm capacity in Alberta is 1781 megawatts. 100 times that is obviously 178100 megawatts of generation capacity or roughly 10.5 times the total present generation capacity in Alberta. The problem is that as AB5 states wind farm efficiency has been less than 5% of late. At 4.5% generation efficiency that translates to producing 8015 megawatts of electricity which is well short of Alberta's consumption peak yesterday of 11700 megawatts. How much would it cost for this much generation capacity from windmills. At a capacity of 1.8 megawatt per windmill and 176310 megawatts of additional generation capacity this is 97955 windmills. Each windmill costs in excess of $2 million dollars to set up. So 97955 x $2 million is $195.910 billion dollars. Yes Chuck it all makes perfect cents now. Enjoy your day. Reply With Quote

  • brs
    Jan 14, 2020 | 21:09 8
    Quote Originally Posted by hamloc View Post
    let's explore what the end result is when we do the math on your statement fjlip. At present the wind farm capacity in alberta is 1781 megawatts. 100 times that is obviously 178100 megawatts of generation capacity or roughly 10.5 times the total present generation capacity in alberta. The problem is that as ab5 states wind farm efficiency has been less than 5% of late. At 4.5% generation efficiency that translates to producing 8015 megawatts of electricity which is well short of alberta's consumption peak yesterday of 11700 megawatts. How much would it cost for this much generation capacity from windmills. At a capacity of 1.8 megawatt per windmill and 176310 megawatts of additional generation capacity this is 97955 windmills. Each windmill costs in excess of $2 million dollars to set up. So 97955 x $2 million is $195.910 billion dollars. Yes chuck it all makes perfect cents now. Enjoy your day.

    here, here Reply With Quote
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  • Jan 14, 2020 | 23:07 9 Coal and gas still making kWh’s in my neighbourhood.


    It was -39 this morning and supposed to do the same tonight. Finally dropped a sinking heater in a energy free waterer today and that’s the first heat we’ve put in a waterer this winter. Doing our part not to overload the grid

    2,200 MW From three different plants produced within 10 miles of me regardless of sun or wind. Reply With Quote

  • J88
    Jan 15, 2020 | 05:58 10 Since coal and gas works I wouldn’t mess with it. If I have a machine that’s dependable I hesitate to trade it off If it’s proven and works at - 35 I will pass on the experiments. Reply With Quote
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  • Jan 15, 2020 | 07:20 11
    Quote Originally Posted by J88 View Post
    Since coal and gas works I wouldn’t mess with it. If I have a machine that’s dependable I hesitate to trade it off If it’s proven and works at - 35 I will pass on the experiments.
    Well i think some people actually try think farther ahead then just this generation and realize the actual definition of non renewable resource and its impact on future generations. Reply With Quote
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  • Jan 15, 2020 | 07:40 12 It's funny you're all so smugly using this in your ridiculous campaign against renewables but forget the history. How can you be short of power in AB with the economy in recession and that expensive Altalink powerline that was put in place to prevent brownouts in Calgary (according to the PCs) A line that Albertans are paying for on every power bill as the operator was granted a 7% profit on the money they didn't spend building it. Truth is despite the PC denials that line was built to sell power to the US - liquidating Woodland's coal reserves and sending it south at AB taxpayer expense with the proceeds straight into corporate pockets. Maybe you should be asking the PC government why the power supply is short not blaming it on wind farms or solar? Reply With Quote

  • LEP
    Jan 15, 2020 | 07:46 13
    Quote Originally Posted by grassfarmer View Post
    It's funny you're all so smugly using this in your ridiculous campaign against renewables but forget the history. How can you be short of power in AB with the economy in recession and that expensive Altalink powerline that was put in place to prevent brownouts in Calgary (according to the PCs) A line that Albertans are paying for on every power bill as the operator was granted a 7% profit on the money they didn't spend building it. Truth is despite the PC denials that line was built to sell power to the US - liquidating Woodland's coal reserves and sending it south at AB taxpayer expense with the proceeds straight into corporate pockets. Maybe you should be asking the PC government why the power supply is short not blaming it on wind farms or solar?
    I believe your beloved NDP shut down a bunch of coal fired plants, Grassy. Paid them to quit I believe. Reply With Quote

  • J88
    Jan 15, 2020 | 09:02 14 I don’t know what’s worse burning to death in Australia or freezing to death in Canada. Maby we need some You Tubers videoing freezing to death here Reply With Quote
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  • Jan 15, 2020 | 09:02 15
    Quote Originally Posted by grassfarmer View Post
    It's funny you're all so smugly using this in your ridiculous campaign against renewables but forget the history. How can you be short of power in AB with the economy in recession and that expensive Altalink powerline that was put in place to prevent brownouts in Calgary (according to the PCs) A line that Albertans are paying for on every power bill as the operator was granted a 7% profit on the money they didn't spend building it. Truth is despite the PC denials that line was built to sell power to the US - liquidating Woodland's coal reserves and sending it south at AB taxpayer expense with the proceeds straight into corporate pockets. Maybe you should be asking the PC government why the power supply is short not blaming it on wind farms or solar?
    Grassfarmer I believe record consumption was due to extreme cold. When I went to bed ambient temperature was -40, when I got up this morning it had warmed up to a balmy -37. Red Deer was was -41.6 at 7 am, record low for the date according to environment Canada was -40.6 in 1950. Also when I looked at 7 am our windmills were generating 16, yes 16 megawatts of electricity out of a potential 1781. As for my "ridiculous campaign against renewables", I would say what about the federal Green Party, federal NDP party, for that matter the federal Liberal party's campaign against common sense? They all promote wind and solar as a replacement for fossil fuels in electrical generation. I have no issue with clean energy sources that make sense like hydroelectric and nuclear but to promote intermittent forms of generation like wind and solar as the be all and end all just won't work for 365 days a year in Alberta. All the computer modelling and examples of how it works in other geographic locations won't change how it will work here. I prefer actual measured performance to pie in the sky computer models. Enjoy your day. Reply With Quote
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  • J88
    Jan 15, 2020 | 09:35 16 You know if stuff starts freezing up and then you have insurance claims then those companies seek damage for who is responsible is the gov’t responsible or is there a list of environmentalists they can sue for damage done ( sarcasm ) Reply With Quote
    Jan 15, 2020 | 11:59 17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamloc View Post
    Grassfarmer I believe record consumption was due to extreme cold. When I went to bed ambient temperature was -40, when I got up this morning it had warmed up to a balmy -37. Red Deer was was -41.6 at 7 am, record low for the date according to environment Canada was -40.6 in 1950. Also when I looked at 7 am our windmills were generating 16, yes 16 megawatts of electricity out of a potential 1781. As for my "ridiculous campaign against renewables", I would say what about the federal Green Party, federal NDP party, for that matter the federal Liberal party's campaign against common sense? They all promote wind and solar as a replacement for fossil fuels in electrical generation. I have no issue with clean energy sources that make sense like hydroelectric and nuclear but to promote intermittent forms of generation like wind and solar as the be all and end all just won't work for 365 days a year in Alberta. All the computer modelling and examples of how it works in other geographic locations won't change how it will work here. I prefer actual measured performance to pie in the sky computer models. Enjoy your day.
    16 out of 1781 is well under 1% of nameplate. Yes, that is a cherry picked in time figure, but there is no rule saying it can't go below that, or stay at these levels for days or weeks at a time. At some point as that divisor approaches zero, while the answer(power consumption) attempts to stay constant, the dividend( the number of wind farms required) approaches infinity.

    There are other proven reliable and cost effective sources of energy that do not require burning non-renewable fossil fuels.

    And at the present time, we are flaring off massive quantities of natural gas that could otherwise be producing electricity 24/7/365.

    I realize that a decade and a half ago when many of these concepts got their big boost, with natural gas looking very much finite and ever more expensive, they might have made better sense than they do now. Reply With Quote
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  • Jan 15, 2020 | 12:44 18 The folks that quote the AESO figures for wind need to be able to explain why hydro doesn't work either in cold weather. When you get done explaining that maybe explain why several of the gas and coal facilities are producing nothing either.

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    Jan 15, 2020 | 12:59 19
    Quote Originally Posted by grassfarmer View Post
    The folks that quote the AESO figures for wind need to be able to explain why hydro doesn't work either in cold weather. When you get done explaining that maybe explain why several of the gas and coal facilities are producing nothing either.

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    I'd like to know the answer too. Water levels shouldn't be low after the summer we had. Lots of zeros in coal and gas. Maybe some can't compete cost wise with co-generation, and newer combined cycle? Not an ideal time of year to do intentional planned maintenance. Reply With Quote
    Jan 15, 2020 | 13:21 20
    Quote Originally Posted by grassfarmer View Post
    The folks that quote the AESO figures for wind need to be able to explain why hydro doesn't work either in cold weather. When you get done explaining that maybe explain why several of the gas and coal facilities are producing nothing either.

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    Interesting , someone should answer that ? Reply With Quote
    Jan 15, 2020 | 13:39 21
    Quote Originally Posted by caseih View Post
    Interesting , someone should answer that ?
    I'm trying. I just called and asked. The relevant party is supposed to call me back with an answer.

    Within 3 business days. I'll keep you posted. Reply With Quote
    Jan 15, 2020 | 14:10 22
    Quote Originally Posted by grassfarmer View Post
    The folks that quote the AESO figures for wind need to be able to explain why hydro doesn't work either in cold weather. When you get done explaining that maybe explain why several of the gas and coal facilities are producing nothing either.

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    In doing a quick bit of googling I found a press release from TransAlta stating that Sundance #3 and #5 have been mothballed until Nov. 1,2021 while TransAlta assesses market prices and conditions. It should also be noted that TransAlta has applied and I believe been approved to convert 3-6 from coal to natural gas. As for Sheerness 1 and 2 in Hannah both have been approved for conversion to natural gas. I have a cousin that works in the Hannah area and I believe that conversion has already begun on the one plant which would explain why the one is not producing. As for Hydro certainly an interesting question. Reply With Quote
    ajl
    Jan 15, 2020 | 18:08 23 Some of those hydro stations are irrigation projects and likely only work during irrigation season. Reply With Quote
    Jan 15, 2020 | 22:12 24 I was surprised to learn that the city of Lethbridge uses more power in summer than the winter.

    Higher amperage for air conditioning compressors and blower motor vs blower motors on furnaces plus auto block heaters, who would have guessed, Lethbridge winters are warmer than Red Deer, but still, am
    I missing something.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/6412450/c...ta-lethbridge/





    r Reply With Quote
    Jan 17, 2020 | 00:32 25 Another bitter cold day in AB. Wind power spent much of the day in the single digits, as low as 3 MW out of 1781 nameplate at one point while I happened to check, it may have gone lower. That is 0.17% of what they are rated at. And makes their contribution to the total grid load a whopping 0.027% at that point.

    Warnings on the news again today to limit electricity consumption to avoid overloading the system.

    On a positive note, the sun must have shone, since the Brooks solar farm did register for a while. Reply With Quote
    Jan 17, 2020 | 00:48 26 I can’t figure out how those wind mills pay. I watched the last few days and zeros and single digits don’t even come close to profit. Now that natural gas generator in Calgary makes some dollars 830 mega watts Reply With Quote
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  • Jan 17, 2020 | 04:49 27
    Quote Originally Posted by TASFarms View Post
    I can’t figure out how those wind mills pay. I watched the last few days and zeros and single digits don’t even come close to profit. Now that natural gas generator in Calgary makes some dollars 830 mega watts
    Yes and they need oil products to operate...grease in the bearings and shaft and petroleum products to be built in the first place (carbon fibre blades).

    Windmills are a great source of energy for the north where there are no gas line or limited powerline....but given the long dark nights and calm no wind days.....they better have lots of diesel for the generators and would split and piled if they run out. Reply With Quote
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  • Jan 17, 2020 | 07:17 28 Why do you argue that it is an either/or scenario; either fossil fuels or green energy? Why not have both and use the source that provides the most benefit both economically and environmentally?

    Compare this to your harvest system. Given the last few falls, what is the best scenario, making no change in your harvest system, investing in a bigger combine to get the crop off faster, or keeping existing sized combine and adding a dryer?

    Arguing that windmills are no good because some days there are no wind is equivalent to arguing grain dryers are no good because some years I will not need to dry grain.

    And even if you do invest in a drying system, you still need a combine, just as there will always be a need conventionally generated power, Reply With Quote
    Jan 17, 2020 | 08:31 29
    Quote Originally Posted by dmlfarmer View Post
    Why do you argue that it is an either/or scenario; either fossil fuels or green energy? Why not have both and use the source that provides the most benefit both economically and environmentally?

    Compare this to your harvest system. Given the last few falls, what is the best scenario, making no change in your harvest system, investing in a bigger combine to get the crop off faster, or keeping existing sized combine and adding a dryer?

    Arguing that windmills are no good because some days there are no wind is equivalent to arguing grain dryers are no good because some years I will not need to dry grain.

    And even if you do invest in a drying system, you still need a combine, just as there will always be a need conventionally generated power,
    Dml I certainly agree but it is our politicians that need to be asked this question not fellow farmers. The Green Party of Canada, the federal NDP, Greenpeace on and on. They all say the use of fossil fuels must be phased out period! Ab5 always brings up the point that renewable energy increases the cost of electricity. This week is a perfect example, many articles from various sources talking about Alberta paying $999 a megawatt(the maximum allowed by law in Alberta apparently) for electricity as our generation capacity reached its maximum output. The average cost for the last year was about $50 a megawatt. According to an expert on Danielle Smiths program yesterday one of the reasons we ran out of generation capacity was the mothballing of coal plants and therefore our greater dependency on wind power which was producing almost nothing all week. So yes Dml I agree with your common sense unfortunately there is very little common sense in the environmental movement of late. Also interesting to note Chuck has gone silent this week, go figure. Enjoy your day. Reply With Quote

  • Jan 17, 2020 | 09:48 30
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamloc View Post
    Dml I certainly agree but it is our politicians that need to be asked this question not fellow farmers. The Green Party of Canada, the federal NDP, Greenpeace on and on. They all say the use of fossil fuels must be phased out period! Ab5 always brings up the point that renewable energy increases the cost of electricity. This week is a perfect example, many articles from various sources talking about Alberta paying $999 a megawatt(the maximum allowed by law in Alberta apparently) for electricity as our generation capacity reached its maximum output. The average cost for the last year was about $50 a megawatt. According to an expert on Danielle Smiths program yesterday one of the reasons we ran out of generation capacity was the mothballing of coal plants and therefore our greater dependency on wind power which was producing almost nothing all week. So yes Dml I agree with your common sense unfortunately there is very little common sense in the environmental movement of late. Also interesting to note Chuck has gone silent this week, go figure. Enjoy your day.
    Hamlock, with all due respect, it is not just the left that is committed to reducing fossil fuels. In fact, in June 2015 at the G7 summit in Germany, Harper committed Canada to ending the use of all fossil fuels for energy by 2100 period. Is this possible, I doubt it. But in the 1920's most farmers felt tractors would never replace horses. Technology changes, costs change, needs change so not I am prepared to say ending all fossil fuel is impossible; just I doubt it and I question if such a goal is doable, wise, or practical.

    Also, part of the current electricity shortage/sky high electrical prices is due to major breakdowns of 2 generators in Alberta. Highligts the importance of the grid to share power from areas where electricity can be generated to areas which are short. While no wind here, does not mean no wind anywhere. Just as fossil fuel generated power can be sent to places where generators have broke down. Which begs the question of price gouging by a private electrical generation system, not just in production but in the building of transmission lines. Reply With Quote