$22 Trillion and accelerating . . . .

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$22 Trillion and accelerating . . . .

Feb 13, 2019 | 08:08 1 U.S. public debt hit $22 trillion yesterday. Government spending continues to accelerate rapidly.

A mind-boggling fact: Yearly service charges (interest costs) on this debt pile now nearly as large as entire annual cost of the U.S. military. Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2019 | 08:16 2
Quote Originally Posted by errolanderson View Post
U.S. public debt hit $22 trillion yesterday. Government spending continues to accelerate rapidly.

A mind-boggling fact: Yearly service charges (interest costs) on this debt pile now nearly as large as entire annual cost of the U.S. military.
Errol the tax cuts that happened are supposed to generate more activity which is supposed to more than compensate for the cuts. How long will it be before we see that or should we have seen that already. There is all kinds of arguments here that the tax cuts were good and bad depending on political views more than fact. I know the trade deals etc muddy the water as to what is doing more good or damage to the debt. Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2019 | 08:16 3
Quote Originally Posted by errolanderson View Post
U.S. public debt hit $22 trillion yesterday. Government spending continues to accelerate rapidly.

A mind-boggling fact: Yearly service charges (interest costs) on this debt pile now nearly as large as entire annual cost of the U.S. military.
Oh, don't worry Errol, Republicans, (ike Conservatives) have always opposed government debt and called for balanced budgets. I sure they will do so again the next time they lose office. And as far as interest and service charges exceeding military spending, I have no doubt the current government can increase military spending again to ensure it continues to be the most prominent spend of the government. Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2019 | 08:48 4 I did a quick look on the internet and It looks like the USA has a higher total public debt to GDP ratio than Canada.

The OECD projection says Canada's % of public debt to GDP will be 92.6% in 2019 falling to 92.1% in 2020.


The OECD projection says the USA's % of public debt to GDP will be 109.9% in 2019 rising to 113.3% in 2020.

Both have similar debt ratings although Standard and Poors is AAA for Canada and AA+ for the USA. Reply With Quote
SASKFARMER3's Avatar Feb 13, 2019 | 09:23 5 Just watching this on tv now.

Basically it’s about building back the military. China and Russia are back and the USA doesn’t want to be left behind.


It’s a lot yes Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2019 | 09:42 6 Trump raised the GDP by a full percentage point which should more than offset the increase in debt. Its not a worry yet. Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2019 | 11:30 7 Canada's GDP growth is lower than the US primarily because of lower world prices for energy resources.

Canada has a lower debt to GDP ratio than the US and Canada's is falling.

It seems that when the US increases its debt it is not so much a problem for the Canadian fiscal conservatives and US Republicans.

But when the Liberals run up the debt they are accused of being big spenders and bad managers. Why the difference? Reply With Quote
SASKFARMER3's Avatar Feb 13, 2019 | 11:45 8 Pissing away money on useless shit like buying a pipeline just to shit it down.

Or the green movement that’s insanely costly.

Or giving billions to the world and our own starve.

Liberals are a disease chuck but nice solar panel that probably was subsidized Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2019 | 12:15 9 SF3, you are always so thoughtful and careful with your words! Too much sun? LMAO Reply With Quote
Feb 13, 2019 | 13:06 10 I guess I was raised with the idea that debt was a bad thing and public debt was the worst. Stealing from your children and grand children for your lifestyle today.

The Liberal's first Trudeau really got Canada's debt ramped up. Mulroney wasn't able to pull it down much but he got the GST in which Chretien and Martin used to cut running up more debt. Harper came next and he tried to keep a lid on debt. Next came the second Trudeau and he is fast and loose with public spending just like the first Trudeau.

Canada's debt isn't really a party thing. Its a TRUDEAU thing and they just happen to be in the Liberal Party Of Canada. Reply With Quote

  • Feb 13, 2019 | 13:45 11
    Quote Originally Posted by seldomseen View Post
    I guess I was raised with the idea that debt was a bad thing and public debt was the worst.
    Stealing from your children and grand children for your lifestyle today.
    The Liberal's first Trudeau really got Canada's debt ramped up. Mulroney wasn't able to pull it down much but he got the GST in which Chretien and Martin used to cut running up more debt. Harper came next and he tried to keep a lid on debt. Next came the second Trudeau and he is fast and loose with public spending just like the first Trudeau.

    Canada's debt isn't really a party thing. Its a TRUDEAU thing and they just happen to be in the Liberal Party Of Canada.
    "stealing from your children and grandchildren for your lifestyle today" is the definition of a liberal Reply With Quote

  • Feb 13, 2019 | 13:47 12 Not spending on our military helps I guess. (tic) Reply With Quote
    Feb 13, 2019 | 14:10 13 Not all GDP are the same. Canadas is made up more of commodities and real estate speculation and govt handouts. The US GDP is much more manufacturing based so it has a better quality GDP that we do. Reply With Quote
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  • ajl
    Feb 13, 2019 | 15:14 14
    Quote Originally Posted by jazz View Post
    Not all GDP are the same. Canadas is made up more of commodities and real estate speculation and govt handouts. The US GDP is much more manufacturing based so it has a better quality GDP that we do.
    Forgot to mention tax audits. Yes I am aware that the IRS does them too but they do not make as big a component of GDP in the US as Canuckistan. Reply With Quote
    Feb 13, 2019 | 18:53 15
    Quote Originally Posted by seldomseen View Post
    ..... Harper came next and he tried to keep a lid on debt. Next came the second Trudeau and he is fast and loose with public spending just like the first Trudeau.

    Canada's debt isn't really a party thing. Its a TRUDEAU thing and they just happen to be in the Liberal Party Of Canada.
    More of your fake news. A reminder of the figures posted by dmlfarmer on another thread:

    From 2009 to 2011 Canada's debt increased by 88 billion
    From 2010 to 2012 Canada's debt increased by 64 billion
    From 2011 to 2013 Canada's debt increased by 58 billion

    You're outraged by Trudeau increasing debt by 58 billion in 2 years but Harper equalled that once and did worse in two other 2 year periods - yet he "tried to keep a lid on debt" ....suuuure! Reply With Quote
    Feb 13, 2019 | 19:57 16
    Quote Originally Posted by seldomseen View Post
    I guess I was raised with the idea that debt was a bad thing and public debt was the worst. Stealing from your children and grand children for your lifestyle today.

    The Liberal's first Trudeau really got Canada's debt ramped up. Mulroney wasn't able to pull it down much but he got the GST in which Chretien and Martin used to cut running up more debt. Harper came next and he tried to keep a lid on debt. Next came the second Trudeau and he is fast and loose with public spending just like the first Trudeau.

    Canada's debt isn't really a party thing. Its a TRUDEAU thing and they just happen to be in the Liberal Party Of Canada.
    Unfortunately, facts don't support your conclusion. (Unless you think Mulroney and Harper were secretly Liberals or Trudeaus???)
    Yes PET increased the national debt by roughly 300 Billion. But then Mulroney added another roughly 300 Billion. The Liberal governments of Chretien and Martin held the debt relatively constant. But then Harper added about another 300 billion to the debt. Now Trudeau is again adding debt. Here is a great graph up to JT period which shows clearly which leader/party added debt and Conservatives are definitely not better money managers.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMWtxLLUEAAHqOn.png
    Last edited by dmlfarmer; Feb 13, 2019 at 20:07.
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    Feb 13, 2019 | 21:01 17 https://twitter.com/HayekAndKeynes/status/998602512772059136?s=20

    National debt is just the tip of the iceberg. Unfunded liabilities such as Medicare, Social security, and pensions dwarf this amount by a factor of 10 Reply With Quote
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  • Feb 13, 2019 | 21:24 18 Can we finally put to bed the myth
    That liberals or ndp are the big
    Spenders .
    Pretty obvious that conservatives
    Spend at least as much if not more
    And if you were to consider all the assets they sell off in the
    Meantime.
    They are probably the winners

    I know it is a favorite talking
    Point for conservatives.
    But Good intentions mean $hat
    You actually have to deliver.
    So until that happens .
    We do not need to hear it.

    They are all guilty.
    Move on Reply With Quote
    Feb 14, 2019 | 04:31 19
    Quote Originally Posted by macdon02 View Post
    https://twitter.com/HayekAndKeynes/status/998602512772059136?s=20

    National debt is just the tip of the iceberg. Unfunded liabilities such as Medicare, Social security, and pensions dwarf this amount by a factor of 10
    Only Portugal, Italy, Greece and Japan have a worst debt load than the U.S. Japan’s massive debt has been characterized as the lost generation.

    U.S, debt now totals about 80 percent of GDP. There is no way the U.S. can grow their way out of this financial mess. And this is called the good times stateside. What wil happen to unfunded liabilities, asset values and standard of living when the economy turns down?

    A massive debt bomb (IMO) . . . . Reply With Quote
    Feb 14, 2019 | 08:25 20 The OECD projection says the USA's % of public debt to GDP will be 109.9% in 2019 rising to 113.3% in 2020.

    Trump cut taxes for the rich, but the overspending continues.

    The US overspends by a wide margin on its military. The military spending is spread around the country making the jobs and economic activity that goes with it hard to cut.

    While many fiscal conservatives want a much smaller government and reduced spending, there is reality that many jobs will be lost and the economy will shrink.

    Errol how does the US get out of this conundrum?

    The Liberals under Chretien and Martin cut a relatively much larger deficit starting in 1993.

    https://www.macleans.ca/economy/economicanalysis/of-the-last-three-federal-governments-which-had-the-best-fiscal-record/ Reply With Quote
    Feb 14, 2019 | 09:12 21
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckChuck View Post
    The OECD projection says the USA's % of public debt to GDP will be 109.9% in 2019 rising to 113.3% in 2020.

    Trump cut taxes for the rich, but the overspending continues.

    The US overspends by a wide margin on its military. The military spending is spread around the country making the jobs and economic activity that goes with it hard to cut.

    While many fiscal conservatives want a much smaller government and reduced spending, there is reality that many jobs will be lost and the economy will shrink.

    Errol how does the US get out of this conundrum?

    The Liberals under Chretien and Martin cut a relatively much larger deficit starting in 1993.

    https://www.macleans.ca/economy/economicanalysis/of-the-last-three-federal-governments-which-had-the-best-fiscal-record/
    chuckChuck . . . there is no way out. The U.S. economy may follow an economic path similar to Japan over the past 20 years. Some economists suggest stagflation and ongoing lost wealth and global power.

    U.S. retail sales released this morning were dreadful. December retail off 1.2% and the worst in a decade. Also, Trump is extending his March 1st tariff increase deadline to China because there is no deal. Commodities are now reflecting the truth of global trade and the prospects of 'Lets Make a Deal'. Reply With Quote
    Feb 14, 2019 | 09:17 22
    Quote Originally Posted by errolanderson View Post
    Also, Trump is extending his March 1st tariff increase deadline to China because there is no deal.
    What wire service is quoting that? Reply With Quote
    SASKFARMER3's Avatar Feb 14, 2019 | 09:57 23 I can’t find that anywhere.

    It’s booming and Americans spent more on this Christmas than any Obama years before. Americans are working.

    Canada is in the shy hole thank a liberal every day it’s no longer harpers fault it’s Trudeau’s. Reply With Quote
    Feb 14, 2019 | 10:58 24
    Quote Originally Posted by SASKFARMER3 View Post
    I can’t find that anywhere.

    It’s booming and Americans spent more on this Christmas than any Obama years before. Americans are working.

    Canada is in the shy hole thank a liberal every day it’s no longer harpers fault it’s Trudeau’s.
    Trading Economics is more credibe than Saskfarmer3's opinion!
    https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/retail-sales
    Last edited by dmlfarmer; Feb 14, 2019 at 11:09.
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    Feb 14, 2019 | 11:05 25
    Quote Originally Posted by LWeber View Post
    What wire service is quoting that?
    Have not heard extension has happened but Bloomberg and Reuters both reported overnight that he is considering doing so.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1Q30DE Reply With Quote
    Feb 17, 2019 | 08:47 26 Taxes go to government, interest on debt goes where?

    It just redirection of public money.

    Go figure. Reply With Quote
    Feb 17, 2019 | 09:46 27
    Quote Originally Posted by westernvicki View Post
    Taxes go to government, interest on debt goes where?

    It just redirection of public money.

    Go figure.
    That all depends on who owns the debt. Your right if debt is government held. But if debt is held by foreign interests, the money flows out of the country. If debt is held by private parties through treasury bills/bonds, then public paid interest is flowing to private investors. Interest charges could simply be adding onto unfunded liability in pension plans if not actually paid. Or it may simply be adding to the deficiet/debt if the budget is not balanced. Reply With Quote
    Feb 17, 2019 | 11:45 28
    Quote Originally Posted by dmlfarmer View Post
    That all depends on who owns the debt. Your right if debt is government held. But if debt is held by foreign interests, the money flows out of the country. If debt is held by private parties through treasury bills/bonds, then public paid interest is flowing to private investors. Interest charges could simply be adding onto unfunded liability in pension plans if not actually paid. Or it may simply be adding to the deficiet/debt if the budget is not balanced.
    So, is the present amount of debt and interest payments too high? How is it decided when is no longer affordable?
    Should government backed pension plans be fully funded? What would that mean to the national economy? Reply With Quote
    Feb 17, 2019 | 12:22 29
    Quote Originally Posted by farming101 View Post
    So, is the present amount of debt and interest payments too high? How is it decided when is no longer affordable?
    Should government backed pension plans be fully funded? What would that mean to the national economy?
    Great questions and I wish I had an answer. But in reality, economics is more an art than a science. There is no natural law that prevails, but outcomes are largely dependent on human emotion no matter if you follow Keynesian or Austrian theory. Growth and recession can occur under both economic theories

    I can only answer with my personal opinion. For the US to add two trillion dollars in debt over last two years when economy is good and employment is low is a huge mistake. Debt was needed in 2008-09 to spur the economy. I agree with Errol that by borrowing more, the US will never be able to grow its economy enough to get out of debt or in my opinion, the deficit. Nor can underfunded social nets ever be fully funded now. So tomorrow's generation will be stuck with todays bills that are continuing to be rung up.

    And I don't think economists, politicians, or the public will know when debt and interest is too high until **** happens. Human nature refuses to accept risks that are not quantifiable. So until we are actually in another global recession, or a deflationary spiral like Japan has endured for years, or hyper inflation, or currency default, or even a replacement of the US dollar as the global reserve currency politicians will continue to buy votes and not face the music. And IMHO, if we don't see a major economic correction soon in one form or another as outlined, the most probable outcome is another world war as the instrument to reset the global economy. Reply With Quote
    Feb 17, 2019 | 15:11 30 Why is it desirable to have a government treasury accumulating it's own money and "getting out of debt"?
    To be sure there is no excuse for wasting money and in most instances no good reason for increasing govt spending just to try and spur the economy without a plan.
    Why did the debt and deficit increase? What does the balance sheet say?
    What would trigger a currency default or loss of reserve currency status? I cannot envision what that would be. Reply With Quote