Comments from seed royalty meeting

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Comments from seed royalty meeting

Dec 4, 2018 | 19:03 1 I hope to hear from the people that went to the meeting in Saskatoon on December 4.....

I was disappointed. ...


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Dec 4, 2018 | 19:24 2
Quote Originally Posted by bucket View Post
I hope to hear from the people that went to the meeting in Saskatoon on December 4.....

I was disappointed. ...


Comments....
I was next door at cargill's market sense.
Talked to an older fellow on the way to parking lot. 1st thing he said was this would never have happened if the cwb was still around.
I said, funny the cwb never came up once during the whole day in my room. lol
told him to have a safe trip home. Reply With Quote
farmaholic's Avatar Dec 4, 2018 | 20:29 3 I wasn't there. And tell us what you heard.....please. Reply With Quote
Dec 4, 2018 | 21:06 4
Quote Originally Posted by farmaholic View Post
I wasn't there. And tell us what you heard.....please.
From the handout...

"""" A range of high performing varieties would be available once a new model is in place, some eligible for end point royalties/farm saved seed royalties and others not...""""

So I asked the question..." qualify high performing varieties?"""

the answer was quality and higher yields....stop....had to wait for later to finish...

But later I commented that higher yields in an infrastructure system that can't handle it and quality that no one wants...?????? not sure they answered that...


But I had a really good discussion with government people at the table outlining things like would ended up paying for the triffid flax fiasco, the fact no one wants quality and gave examples of durum pricing and grading.....etc....they listened but I thought the meeting would be more like that... Reply With Quote
Dec 4, 2018 | 21:09 5 BTW some things never change ...same faces which I find interesting... Reply With Quote
farmaholic's Avatar Dec 4, 2018 | 21:27 6 So there not releasing the "hostages"(new and improved varieties) until their "yearly ransom" can be collected? Reply With Quote
Dec 4, 2018 | 21:41 7 There is always new varieties coming out. Reply With Quote
Dec 4, 2018 | 22:02 8 ....at my table discussion I asked why Syngenta put their hybrid wheat on hold.....no answer ....but they don't think its for royalty reason......OK....I am just stupid then. Reply With Quote
Dec 4, 2018 | 22:08 9
Quote Originally Posted by farmaholic View Post
So there not releasing the "hostages"(new and improved varieties) until their "yearly ransom" can be collected?
Interesting that seed companies expect gullible farmers to line up to pay a seed tax.
Imagine volunteering to pay a tax “yearly ransom” without proof there will be an end benefit.

The varieties we have now already seem to congest our questionable railway and shipping service.

Craziness. Reply With Quote
Dec 4, 2018 | 22:11 10 And where does this end.....next over to the livestock industry to charge a royalty on the bulls or cows I use...right.... Reply With Quote
farmaholic's Avatar Dec 4, 2018 | 22:11 11 Accidents happen! Reply With Quote
Dec 4, 2018 | 22:16 12 The theme was value for investment.

2016 over 55.9% of farmers are 55 & over (1)
In 2016 farmers under 35 were only 9.7% (2) of the farm base, and as a prorated average in the room, the youngest voices were most concerned about the impact of increasing costs would have on farm profitability in the future.

Association representatives noted the concern about check off weariness, if a seed tax comes, in, as well as the carbon tax, will farmers want their check off money back? (3)


As for overall costs of the seed royalty numbers were suggested based on acres of wheat, but no final cost estimates were presented. Nor were current fund spent on certified seed presented.

2 models were promoted: Our table preferred EPR, End Point Royalty, over the concept of a production contract used to bill for seed use. Some preferred zero change.


CDC/ AAFC represented the public sector, & LIMAGRAIN a farmer owned global cooperative corporation spoke, all noted the need for funds to maintain rapidly changing innovation in plant breeding as a potential impact on future Canadian competitiveness. The Australian and French EPR were noted as examples.

The process which started in 2016, is for the next few months in the public consultation phase, a decision is expected to be implemented by 2020.

While most agreed we need seed innovation, the question of cost, competitiveness, efficiency and transparency & accountability of the process were words used a lot.







(1) Census
(2) Census
(3) 2016 33 million in check off dollars were collected by the commodity groups in Saskatchewan , not including WGRF funds. Reply With Quote
Dec 4, 2018 | 22:40 13 Value has to be there for all players in this industry....growing more bushels without adequate infrastructure will result in a 2013 and 1997 incidents....and more recently what's going on in the oil industry...

There is no royalty on grain that can't be sold. ...is there?


I think seed growers have had their say in the process...sorry westernvicki....but it irritated me that seed growers had been speckled throughout this meeting....

I realize they are farmers but they are promoting a royalty system that will help them...not necessarily good for farmers... Reply With Quote
ajl
Dec 4, 2018 | 22:42 14 There have been a lot of new seed varieties released in the past couple of years. Many of them cousins if not brother and sister and not significantly different. This is without end point royalties. Markets are saturated with surplus production. How much more investment can we stand? The seed industry is already over investing so why even more investment? I am not opposed to investment, just the fact that government is being used as a tool to force me to guarantee a return on all this investment. What we need is more markets and access to markets than seed investment. Reply With Quote
farmaholic's Avatar Dec 4, 2018 | 23:02 15 "As for overall costs of the seed royalty numbers were suggested based on acres of wheat, but no final cost estimates were presented. Nor were current fund spent on certified seed presented."

Interesting.

Take the yearly average wheat acres and multiply them by what ever Ransom the decide to impose.

How much do they think they need? What do they actually need? What will actually be levied?

What are we competing against? Russian wheat? General purpose American wheat? Low cost low quality wheat? High quality wheat prices get dragged down closer to low quality prices , I doubt it happens the other way.

If canola seed costs are 13-15% of gross per acre returns....15% of wheat at 50 bpa @ $6.50/bu = $48.75/ac seed costs. No way.... How much will they want? Who will be monitoring the sodomy?
Last edited by farmaholic; Dec 4, 2018 at 23:33.
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farmaholic's Avatar Dec 4, 2018 | 23:16 16 The largest beneficiaries will be the SeedCos....which will likely be the AgriChemCos.

Hybrid wheat seeds will have limited farm saved seed shelf life....enter seed growers. Bigger trickle down here for them than standard bred wheat, more certified hybrid wheat will be bought if the wheat loses its vigor in subsequent years of continual use. Or does closed/self pollinating wheat not lose it's vigor like open pollinated canola?

A message to seed breeders....go to Russia or better yet, Africa!!! That's where all the future Ag growth opportunity is supposedly going to be. Oh!....you don't like the political environment? Gold fucken bricks are being laid for them to walk on here!
Last edited by farmaholic; Dec 4, 2018 at 23:37.
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farmaholic's Avatar Dec 4, 2018 | 23:32 17 UPOV member countries and which Act they're signed up to

Clickable link...open PDF, "List of UPOV members" Reply With Quote
Dec 5, 2018 | 05:16 18 A buck a tonne on end point royalty on wheat and durum is 35 million pretty quick....and people don't like the way the CGC built their fund..... Reply With Quote
Dec 5, 2018 | 05:20 19 I arrived late and didn't hear the early discussions. It seemed to me the only ones in agreement had a connection to a raise increase.
I like the idea that farmers should receive the benefits by owning the seed rights.
Who was the gentleman who suggested this? Reply With Quote
Dec 5, 2018 | 05:33 20 it was a good idea but I always thought by paying a checkoff that contributed to new varieties we already owned some part of it....not so.

But I don't know how we can pay the upfront money through a checkoff and then end point royalties as well....all I know is someone wants more money off my farm whether its more checkoff or royalties / taxes... Reply With Quote
farmaholic's Avatar Dec 5, 2018 | 05:50 21
Quote Originally Posted by bucket View Post
A buck a tonne on end point royalty on wheat and durum is 35 million pretty quick....and people don't like the way the CGC built their fund.....
Not once but year in year out year in year out into perpetuity. Reply With Quote
Dec 5, 2018 | 06:04 22 Yes your right, apparently we are already renting our seed.
Fuck it sink or swim! If they develop a seed that provides real value it will sell. If they invest there own money it would make them accountable. lets learn from the canola bull shit, how much of our money was wasted developing hundreds of varieties of canola ? If this type of research requires so much money how did we end up with too many canola varieties to name they only get numbers now?
Play with your own money!
Go run this shit past the dragons den. Reply With Quote
SASKFARMER3's Avatar Dec 5, 2018 | 06:39 23 This whole topic pisses me off to no end.

One look at the Canola Shit show farmers, That's what you will get from this useless seed tax. It's about profit for parasites and pennies for farmers.

Mother nature still holds the Cards in Western Canada.

Yes, I grew a huge wheat crop this year and it was thanks to a few things.

1. Moisture in Ground to start with.
2. Three Timely spots of rain.
3. Fertility program that makes farmers edge look cheap.
4. Sprays that keep weed population down and good burnoff.
5.Fungicides if needed.
6. finally an important factor in wheat variety I grow.

But here is the kicker. In our part of the world, we grew straw and finally a nice head that produced a 50-bushel crop back in a day or 57 at best.

No, it's not manipulator its parent was an American wheat variety that the Canadian company used to get a shorter semidwarf spring wheat variety.

Shorter straw by up to two feet.

That two feet of growth took time to produce that straw and used fert. and energy and days.

Canada is a short season cropping country and one screw up it's all for nothing.

No forgiveness here.

So Yes I paid top dollar for the variety when it came out I had my choice of about 10 or more but chose this one. It responded for our area and works.

But to pay over and over and over its insane, What if you had one of the others and it gave 60 HRS wow you think I hit the mother load. HAHAHAHAH. Reality it is a dud.

HRS wheat yields in Eastern Sask and Manitoba were Excellent this year with some an 8 in front number.

Yes, boys, wheat can grow to that level.

But miss one rain and it's 40 or less.

They still get their cash.

Pick a shit variety they still win.

Again whoever thinks this is a great way to change seed is a complete F#$King Moron.

Farmers need to start doing like France and burn the F#$K3ers down.

They take and take and take and give nothing more than peanuts back.

Your work for them and they profit while you suffer.

Fert costs to grow the Yields we had this year will cost our farm an extra $120,000.00 and if it turns dry were down to maybe a 45-bushel crop. With seed tax and chem increase and fert. skyrocket your losing money.

But they don't care its just the stupid farmer.

Boom thanks for playing here's your tax.

I did some early numbers for 2019 crop year and I expect my wheat yields to be down unless timely rain happen. With the extra cost of fert and now I know an increase is coming on chemical and the carbon tax. Plus companys buying each other out and making one new one. Profit will be the min for HRS. Where do I get to add to my price to get some of the extra costs back?

Nowhere as I have to sell on the world price and get what's left after paying all the bills.

Again if it comes to be Its another nail in a farmers coffin brought to you by stupid farmers, stupid Governments who fall for this shit.

Canola didn't work Wheat sure as hell won't.

Some wonder why I hate and discourage farming.

Money was made in the past now Pennies are being made the next step is working for nothing and finally were like India farmers FUCKED>

Don't like what I say I really don't give a rats ass. This is a stupid idiotic idea what farmer thinks he will prosper with this is insane.

Where less than 20 away from a 100 but it wasn't all thanks to seed just an old american variety brought north. Reply With Quote
Dec 5, 2018 | 06:40 24
Quote Originally Posted by GOODRUM View Post
Yes your right, apparently we are already renting our seed.
Fuck it sink or swim! If they develop a seed that provides real value it will sell. If they invest there own money it would make them accountable. lets learn from the canola bull shit, how much of our money was wasted developing hundreds of varieties of canola ? If this type of research requires so much money how did we end up with too many canola varieties to name they only get numbers now?
Play with your own money!
Go run this shit past the dragons den.
They like royalty deals on Dragons Den....its almost like government officials watch it too often ...

Who ever goes to Edmonton ....use this line....

You guys have been watching too much Dragons Den or Shark Tank or Kevin Oleary.... Reply With Quote
Dec 5, 2018 | 06:45 25 The meeting isolated the question between two choices, one obvious. I guess what bothers me is the age old debate about who pays who benefits and how it relates to the national policy of Canada is one that needs to happen but it was not in the room.

Canada & farmers cannot ignore the fact that increasing global competition from lower cost, more ideally located geographically production zones is real, the debate of how we compete globally, is one the nation should have.

Keeping up with genetic edge is vital to Canadian crop competitiveness, the way the costs are split is the question.
Last edited by westernvicki; Dec 5, 2018 at 06:48.
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Dec 5, 2018 | 06:47 26 One farmer did suggest a producer owned seed company?

Where could this go?

LIMAGRAIN is a farmer owned seed company, if we need a model. Reply With Quote
Dec 5, 2018 | 06:48 27 SF3

I was pissed at what I heard from the Winnipeg so I had to go to Saskatoon...


What I found it there was 150 people corralled in a room..

The seed growers were well represented....not sure why,,,, they have had their say to get to this point...

There was the AAFC CDC and Limagrain ...good pitches for justifying this royalty thing...I get that..

But I don't get why I pay a checkoff out of one pocket, excess rail freight out of another, general taxes that go to this shit out of another pocket, and now the last pocket is going to be a royalty....

Where the fuck is a pocket for Bucket???? Don't say use a pail..I have heard that before....
Last edited by bucket; Dec 5, 2018 at 07:15.
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Dec 5, 2018 | 06:50 28 So where does this tax money come from ? It’s no different than the carbon tax in a way . All this extra money come out of thin air ?????
Run the numbers on wheat in western Canada the past ten years ..... there is already Fuk all left for net profit . So where does this money come from when it becomes absolutely non profitable for the producer and no one grows wheat ? Or the wheat with all the “seed tax” on it ?
Was that reality brought up ? Do they realize that when crops are not profitable anymore , farmers quit growing them ?
I guess the “seed tax” or royalties are acceptable if your the direct beneficiary or part of .
Death by 1000 cuts ... every one else thinks they deserve a piece of the primary producers every move ... Reply With Quote
Dec 5, 2018 | 06:54 29 As for seed growers bucket, in AU the companies offer a program to seed and resell seed off certified in an effort to increase market share: AGT has a contract easily googled.

The seed industry will change, likely to more contract type production and hybrids, no bonanza here for long for us, my get.

I do however know first hand that good varieties do make you money and are the incremental gain which over the course of farm carreer are worth the investment.

Having marketed niche seeds globally for most of my life, I also know the world is open to finding homes for ingredients, and commodities both.


The question of this debate is one of process. We will pay more. How the rules are set, what are trade offs are is important.

We need better data on varieties so we can have better information of product performance of varieties.
We need a process to deal with conflict of interest potential
We need to address who pays for what.

Should administrators be paid, when in reality they benefit as well from the increased production.

Lots of question, I just hope someone is asking for them to be addressed. Reply With Quote
Dec 5, 2018 | 06:57 30
Quote Originally Posted by westernvicki View Post
One farmer did suggest a producer owned seed company?

Where could this go?

LIMAGRAIN is a farmer owned seed company, if we need a model.

Here is what I got from talking to Kofi from CDC.....I asked "when you tender a variety once developed you add up all your costs and a ROI on the money used to get to that point and make some money for further development, in other words you use that as a profit centre?"""

The short answer was NO.

I think thats wherein lies the problem....as a comparison if CDC was run like Limagrain , if thats the model for this discussion, how do we get there?

Farmer ownership of CDC from the checkoffs?

I don't know,,,,but the royalty doesn't guarantee it benefits Canadian farmers.

Travis from the Swift Current area asked that , and why I wanted clarity, who pays the royalty on a Canadian variety developed in Canada but also ends up being grown in Khakistan?

That was very good question..... Reply With Quote