Billions in subsidies to big business

Commodity Marketing

Tools

Billions in subsidies to big business

Oct 13, 2017 | 07:55 1 Canadians pay hefty $684B bill in business subsidies over 30 years, study shows
http://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/canadians-pay-hefty-684b-bill-in-business-subsidies-over-20-years-study-shows Reply With Quote
ajl
Oct 13, 2017 | 08:13 2 Bombardier and the supply managed farmers of Canada are likely the two biggest recipients today. Not to mention wind farm developers. I agree: end all subsidies to business. Reply With Quote
Oct 13, 2017 | 10:55 3 Yea and this pair of idiots are going after small buisness ... the lifeblood of the country . Complete assholes Reply With Quote
Oct 13, 2017 | 11:49 4 From the above post:
"Among the provinces, the study found that Quebec overall had the highest level of subsidies during that period, at $115.5-billion, followed by Alberta at $49.9-billion, Ontario at$46.7-billion and British Columbia at $34.5-billion.

They were followed by Saskatchewan at $18.3-billion and Manitoba at $10.5-billion. Nova Scotia spent $4.6-billion, Newfoundland and Labrador provided $3.1-billion, New Brunswick totalled $2.4-billion, and Prince Edward Island was at the bottom with $1.5-billion.

“In Quebec, over the decades, subsidies have increased in almost every year with few exceptions,” the study said.

The Fraser Institute looked at other sources of data for its study, including Industry Canada, which showed subsidies to private businesses amounted to $22.4-billion between 1961 and 2013. The top 10 recipients received almost $8.5-billion, or 38% of the total.

Eight of those companies are still in business, with healthy profits and plenty of cash on hand." end quote.

Quebec number 1, Alberta number 2!! ??? Wholly shit how can Alberta business get almost the same amount of subsidies as Quebec per capita? Who would have thought that "free market" Alberta is raking in a whole lot of subsidies and still complains about Quebec subsidies! Looks like Saskatchewan is getting a whole lot per capita as well. How could this happen under mostly Conservative governments who want smaller government and to cut spending? Are they socialists or what? Or just giving their business friends handouts? Reply With Quote
Oct 13, 2017 | 11:55 5 One question Chuck. How much more in equalization payments did Alberta pay than they got back in business subsidies??? I will be willing to bet that that is where the comparison should be, lets talk about the whole story..... Reply With Quote
Oct 13, 2017 | 12:04 6
Quote Originally Posted by ajl View Post
Bombardier and the supply managed farmers of Canada are likely the two biggest recipients today. Not to mention wind farm developers. I agree: end all subsidies to business.
Well Bombardier is at #4. Supply managed farmers obviously aren't - as they don't get subsidized for the last time If anybody in the milk business is getting a subsidy i'd be looking for Parmalat or Nestle on the list.
A few interesting ones on this top 50 list. #8 Calfrac Well Services, #26 Parrish & Heimbecker Limited plus lots of other mining and energy industry companies.

http://https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/top-50-report-on-business-the-funding-portal/article19192109/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com& Reply With Quote
Oct 13, 2017 | 12:07 7 Farmers edge is government subsidized.... Reply With Quote
Oct 13, 2017 | 12:23 8
Quote Originally Posted by pgluca View Post
One question Chuck. How much more in equalization payments did Alberta pay than they got back in business subsidies??? I will be willing to bet that that is where the comparison should be, lets talk about the whole story.....
Yes lets look at the whole story including that for all the complaining about Quebec and Bombardier, Alberta and Saskatchewan are getting a large amount of business subsidies.

And Equalization is a federal program paid for by the federal government with federal taxes collected in all provinces. Ontario tax payers contribute the most federal taxes because they are the largest economy. Alberta happens to pay relatively more per capita federal taxes because incomes are higher than average largely because of the oil and gas sector. Reply With Quote
Oct 13, 2017 | 12:28 9
Quote Originally Posted by pgluca View Post
One question Chuck. How much more in equalization payments did Alberta pay than they got back in business subsidies??? I will be willing to bet that that is where the comparison should be, lets talk about the whole story.....
No doubt Alberta contributes a lot but also receives a lot of federal transfers Health is one. This all needs to be looked at to get the full picture.

In the end incomes in Alberta are higher than the rest of the country so they are doing very well. So I am not sure why they are so hard done by? Its like the rich neighbor down the road who has a lot of oil revenue and surface leases complaining about the high taxes he pays. Everybody laughs at him and says oh that must be soooo hard! Reply With Quote
Klause's Avatar Oct 13, 2017 | 12:46 10
Quote Originally Posted by chuckChuck View Post
No doubt Alberta contributes a lot but also receives a lot of federal transfers Health is one. This all needs to be looked at to get the full picture.

In the end incomes in Alberta are higher than the rest of the country so they are doing very well. So I am not sure why they are so hard done by? Its like the rich neighbor down the road who has a lot of oil revenue and surface leases complaining about the high taxes he pays. Everybody laughs at him and says oh that must be soooo hard!


I don't know... Maybe has something to do with having a $5700 take home and $5600 deduction on your paycheque... I'm not joking that's what I had.


Here if I'm having a bad year on the farm why don't you give me half of all your earnings to even it out.
Last edited by Klause; Oct 13, 2017 at 12:49.
Reply With Quote
Klause's Avatar Oct 13, 2017 | 12:47 11
Quote Originally Posted by bucket View Post
Farmers edge is government subsidized....
Taking government money and farmers money to sell farmers field level highly valuable production info to the markets. Wow. Reply With Quote
Oct 13, 2017 | 12:59 12 My question is , what makes this "info" so valuable ? What exactly is the end game on all this "valuable" info ?
Why is there such a scramble for this info? Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 06:05 13
Quote Originally Posted by bucket View Post
Farmers edge is government subsidized....
And have been hearing them advertising on tsn 1290 Winnipeg. What a crock. Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 06:12 14
Quote Originally Posted by chuckChuck View Post
No doubt Alberta contributes a lot but also receives a lot of federal transfers Health is one. This all needs to be looked at to get the full picture.

In the end incomes in Alberta are higher than the rest of the country so they are doing very well. So I am not sure why they are so hard done by? Its like the rich neighbor down the road who has a lot of oil revenue and surface leases complaining about the high taxes he pays. Everybody laughs at him and says oh that must be soooo hard!
Are you a communist? Asking seriously? Reply With Quote
fjlip's Avatar Oct 14, 2017 | 06:22 15 Equal...

Name:  equal.jpg
Views: 1320
Size:  61.3 KB Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 07:03 16 Farmers Edge #41 , $6,100,000. Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 07:27 17 I guess on the bright side the subsidies were invested well in Alberta Chuck2, as you always point out very high per capita income and a large contributor of federal personal and corporate tax. What happened to Quebec? Highest level of subsidization but certainly nowhere nere the top in average earnings? Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 07:36 18
Quote Originally Posted by Bowerpower View Post
Are you a communist? Asking seriously?
So Bower, Canada's progressive tax system is widely supported by both Conservative, Liberal and NDP governments. This is not communism if you were wondering.

The more you make, the higher your income tax rate. I know some rich well paid people like to argue that a flat tax would be fairer, but then lower income Canadians would end up paying a far greater share of their income to run the country and pay for services that are used by low and high income Canadians.

One of the problems is that the tax burden has shifted away from business taxes to personal income taxes. The reason this has happened is we end up competing with other countries who lower their business taxes to attract and keep business. Where does it end? Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 07:49 19
Quote Originally Posted by fjlip View Post
Equal...

Name:  equal.jpg
Views: 1320
Size:  61.3 KB
That graphic of equalization payments does not tell the whole story. As I have pointed out time and again incomes are higher in Alberta because of oil and gas. After taxation Albertans are still better off with higher incomes.

Equalization is a federal program paid for with federal taxes collected from all Canadians. It can be tweaked but the overall policy goal is good for the country. Without it we become a country of extreme differences in the ability of provinces to provide health care, education and other social programs. It would make many Canadians second class citizens in terms of the services they receive. Do you think that is a good idea?

The start of this post was about business subsidies. It is clear that businesses in Alberta and Saskatchewan which are resource rich, are receiving subsidies per capita equal to or greater than Quebec. Funny how this is not part of the discussion and the only thing many people can think about is how a federal equalization program pays more to Quebec. Reply With Quote
Klause's Avatar Oct 14, 2017 | 07:58 20 Canada has higher taxes than Germany... Yet we have little infrastructure a fairly poor social support system...


But we do have a government that spends $200,000 DESIGNING THR COVER PAGE FOR LAST YEARS BUDGET!!

we pay high taxes for insane government waste. That's it.

And on top of that you make the top 1/3 of Canadians pay for 3/4 of the tax burden.

What does that do? It makes the lower 2/3 increase in numbers and that top 1/3 progressively leaves...

Something socialists have never figured out...

Paying ones fair share is one thing but when that fair (people's) share becomes greater than the share ones keeps for themselves... Why work so hard just say f***k it. Reply With Quote
ajl
Oct 14, 2017 | 08:03 21
Quote Originally Posted by grassfarmer View Post
Well Bombardier is at #4. Supply managed farmers obviously aren't - as they don't get subsidized for the last time If anybody in the milk business is getting a subsidy i'd be looking for Parmalat or Nestle on the list.
A few interesting ones on this top 50 list. #8 Calfrac Well Services, #26 Parrish & Heimbecker Limited plus lots of other mining and energy industry companies.

http://https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/top-50-report-on-business-the-funding-portal/article19192109/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&
Supply manged farmers are subsidized because government sets the price for their product at above free market rates most of the time. I know lefties really can't understand this concept. Then there is the direct subsidy paid for industrial milk. I don't know if that one is still around but it was in the 70's and 80's. Whenever you receive income that is a result of government policy instead of free market trading, you are being subsidized. Most income in Canuckistan is off this variety as we have a managed economy rather than free market one. Borrower have received a huge subsidy as interest rates have not been set in a free market for many years. Reply With Quote
Klause's Avatar Oct 14, 2017 | 08:05 22
Quote Originally Posted by chuckChuck View Post

The start of this post was about business subsidies. It is clear that businesses in Alberta and Saskatchewan which are resource rich, are receiving subsidies per capita equal to or greater than Quebec. Funny how this is not part of the discussion and the only thing many people can think about is how a federal equalization program pays more to Quebec.

Business subsidies (and I'm against them) are designed or supposed to increase the efficiency of the economy... Create jobs... And in the end increase the tax base and GDP of the country.


Now take those subsidies and compare them to GDP of each province and see who is most efficient with the.

If you want compare them to increase in GDP over the period those subsidies where handed out.


Now where we're the subsidies most effective and where did they do the least amount of good, Chuck? Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 08:11 23 Oh the Robin Hood mentality, if I take your money and give it to this group instead I'll get re-elected...... there's nothing noble about a politician, they should all be burnt at the stake. Kill all the lawyers they never live under the laws they pass being they are the elite. Wife's grandfather had a dirty little secret come out after he died, card stating "Communist Party of Canada membership" from idk what year, they do exist. The orange blood flows deep in that household. Govt is NEVER the answer to anything. Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 08:12 24 Klause , got to think like a liberal or Québécois, hide all your wealth. Have off shore holdings to remove your self from Canadian taxs like an elite liberal or pretend your poor and basically run your business like bombardier or the hells angles that run Quebec.
Ever notice where most of the illegal call centres are from ??? Yup Quebec .
It's a province full of corruption.
There is far more underground wealth there than the total wealth in Alberta .
Just that in Alberta they had to flash it around . Central Canada don't like that so they are going after that .
Westernvickie has brought this up several times .... chucky pretends he don't see it .
Quebec shows a major false economy to suck money from the west , fact . Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 08:13 25
Quote Originally Posted by Hamloc View Post
I guess on the bright side the subsidies were invested well in Alberta Chuck2, as you always point out very high per capita income and a large contributor of federal personal and corporate tax. What happened to Quebec? Highest level of subsidization but certainly nowhere nere the top in average earnings?
Saskatchewan has the highest level of business subsidization compared to Quebec. Alberta is not far behind Quebec. The answer to your question is simple. Oil and gas nothing more nothing less. Take that away and Alberta would be average or perhaps below average. Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 08:14 26
Quote Originally Posted by chuckChuck View Post
So Bower, Canada's progressive tax system is widely supported by both Conservative, Liberal and NDP governments. This is not communism if you were wondering.

The more you make, the higher your income tax rate. I know some rich well paid people like to argue that a flat tax would be fairer, but then lower income Canadians would end up paying a far greater share of their income to run the country and pay for services that are used by low and high income Canadians.

One of the problems is that the tax burden has shifted away from business taxes to personal income taxes. The reason this has happened is we end up competing with other countries who lower their business taxes to attract and keep business. Where does it end?
Government policy is leaning more and more left all the time. And we know where that leads.
and yes we need a business environment that promotes investment. Are the taxes to low maybe, but I'd much rather have the business and the people employed.
And the libtards are doing nothing!!! They are attacking busines instead. So where's the economic plan... this is why energy east is so telling. Let's stifle growth instead of promote it. It could have been a huge boon for the future of this country. Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 08:22 27 See chucky that's the main objective of elite leftists. You just spelled it out . The elites in central Canada are going to try just that ..... destroy the oil and gas sectors so that Alberta / Sask become less than them , a reduced threat to power in central Canada . Thx for finally showing the true nature of the carbon tax, the proposed liberal tax changes, the cancellation of trans gas.... and many other wealth transfer schemes and disposable income crushing plans of JT and company 👍👍 Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 08:29 28
Quote Originally Posted by Klause View Post
Business subsidies (and I'm against them) are designed or supposed to increase the efficiency of the economy... Create jobs... And in the end increase the tax base and GDP of the country.


Now take those subsidies and compare them to GDP of each province and see who is most efficient with the.

If you want compare them to increase in GDP over the period those subsidies where handed out.


Now where we're the subsidies most effective and where did they do the least amount of good, Chuck?
If you dont support subsidies to business why do you continue to vote for Conservative governments who support subsidies for business?

Good luck with you analysis on where subsidies do the most good. Neither you or I have the time or capacity for such analysis.

You can complain about paying a lot of taxes. Perhaps Germany is a lower income tax jurisdiction. They also have a small land base and a bigger population. They also were rebuilt after the second world war with a lot of help and subsidies from the Marshall plan. Oh maybe you forgot about that? They also have a VAT of around 19% on all goods and services compared to 5% GST in Canada. Is it really a lower tax Country?

I have this feeling that where ever you are, there is always going to be a lot to complain about. Some people are never happy. I don't feel sorry for guys like you who take home $5000 a month. If that is your biggest problem then you don't have much of a problem. There are a lot of Canadians who would like to have your "problem".
Last edited by chuckChuck; Oct 14, 2017 at 08:32.
Reply With Quote
Oct 14, 2017 | 08:37 29
Quote Originally Posted by chuckChuck View Post
...I have this feeling that where ever you are, there is always going to be a lot to complain about. Some people are never happy. I don't feel sorry for guys like you who take home $5000 a month. If that is your biggest problem then you don't have much of a problem. There are a lot of Canadians who would like to have your "problem".
Wow, chucky, seems like you're still throwing out some pretty wild guesses and speculation!

And your speculation sounds a bit envious as well!

How do you like your federal finance minister's stance of subsidizing himself through his own tax avoidance schemes while trying to nail small business owners (read: risk takers) for every last nickel possible?

You wanna take a guess at how that sits with true small business owners, wage earners and farmers? Reply With Quote
blackpowder's Avatar Oct 14, 2017 | 08:51 30 So Klauses pay stub had 5760 take home on a 5000 deduction. The point was probably that a nearly 50% deduct affects all the people in blue collar with good jobs. Why work overtime? Why take an extra shift? Why hire more when the wage rate and employer costs make it expensive? Those jobs are the bricks and mortar. Waitresses getting automatic, assumed tax deducts on pay stubs for tips??? even if they didn't get any.
A flat tax for all might stop the socialists from jealous attacks on the hard working from their cushy viewpoint.
Stop telling others what they dont 'deserve' and what you do. Reply With Quote