The Real Issue Facing Canadian Cattle Producers

[DiamondSCattleCo]

A quote by farmers_son:

"It has been over 4 years, BSE may be an issue but it is not the only issue today and I do not think it is the most important issue in 2008. Some focus needs to shift from BSE to our other pressing challenges."

I believe this quote to be true, however I suspect that what farmers_son refers to and what I think is the genuine issue facing producers today are somewhat different.

The ABP/SSGA/CCA et. al. were founded on DEMOCRATIC principals. In other words, one member, one vote. The theory being of course that the members that the organization represents can and will determine the directions and stances that the organization takes.

It appears to me as though the ABP/SSGA/CCA et. al. have definitely lost sight of these principals. And until they re-gain sight of these principals, they are worthless organizations. And without their representation at government levels, we as producers have little chance in influencing government policy. And that I feel is the real issue facing us today.

So farmers_son, in case you're not understanding what I'm trying to say here, let me spell it out:

An ABP rep, or a CCA rep, or any representative of a producer organization is certainly entitled to their opinions as an individual. And they have the right to exercise their one vote. But beyond that, their opinion counts for NOTHING once they don on their ABP representative hats. Once that hat goes on, their opinion LEAVES, and they are EXPECTED to do exactly what their organization's members want them to do, whether they agree with those members or not.

My point to all this: As a producer, and one of the MAJORITY of producers in the country, I (we) are telling the ABP/SSGA/CCA that BSE is an issue, one that is near and dear to our hearts and that we do want to allow private party testing. We don't give a damn what that idiot Hugh says, nor do we care what our representatives opinions are, but we now expect our representatives to act on our wishes. BSE is an issue because WE say it is and we don't give a damn if the ABP/SSGA/CCA powers say it isn't.

Rod

[farmers_son]

I presume by "we" you mean the handful of people who contribute to the threads here in Agriville. Because I think the majority of cattle producers have bigger problems these days.

BSE was a big time issue when the border closed on May 23, 2003. When we had our last BSE cow in December it hardly got a word of mention in the press. That is a good thing. I take that to mean that BSE is not much of an issue with the press anymore. I think you would agree with that.

Since May 2003 Canada has mostly normalized trade with the U.S. (with some restrictions). I think I could say that since live cows and cow beef are now entering the U.S. and Canada is shipping beef to other countries too that BSE is much less of an issue now then it was in May 2003 when it comes to exports. There is more that needs to be done in that respect. But to keep things in proportion; U.S. border closed to all Canadian live cattle and beef...big issue. Live UTM and OTM cattle and beef trading with the U.S. with some restrictions...not so much of an issue.

The reality as I see it is our present financial situation has far more to do with the change in the Canadian dollar than it does to the lingering costs of BSE. I see COOL as having a greater impact on the competitiveness of the Canadian cattle industry than BSE. The real pain from BSE lasted about two years while COOL will change the North American cattle industry permanently unless Canada successfully challenges COOL through NATO or the WTO. The R-Calf people have mostly left the BSE issue behind and are concentrating their efforts on COOL.
COOL is a big issue whether Canadian cattle producers understand that or not.

I am just expressing my opinion when I say BSE is not much of an issue today, by that I mean in comparison to the other challenges our industry faces. I think the real issue today is returns from the sale of our calves does not pay the bills. And it is going to be that way for a few years. Believe it or not, we have been through other tough economic times. There is nothing democratic about the marketplace. We do have the democratic right to find ways to try and improve our operations profitability and the successful ones will do that. But at some point we have to play with the cards we are dealt. And I think the card in that hand that is killing us right now is the stronger Canadian dollar, not BSE. That was another hand.

[per]

Well said Rod. Just to add to your point, the check-off $3 that pays for the ABP/CCA comes from said producers. This producer was at the meeting where the check-off was raised to $3 and even voted for it because I mistakenly thought that it would be used wisely. Specifically, for the lobbying of the CCIA to forward the permitting of testing. (naive I guess) I wonder how democracy would treat the mandate of the ABP if we were to vote on whether the check-off was voluntary. As a producer that freely supports more organizations than just the ABP I would be willing to support the groups that listen to the industry and not the ones that berate the hand that feeds it. If the ABP spent more time listening to its constituents and supporting them and less time spinning its wheels playing politics it would be truly refreshing. All these New issues would be here anyway, lets get the BSE debacle behind us by dealing with it and not ignoring it.

Philip

[rkaiser]

And a true ABP/CCA response from farmer_son.

Deflect from a very true post by Diamond.

Democracy is the true problem with our industry and the BSE issue has proven the point. Why do you think that the final ABP/CCA meeting in Fort Macleod was attended by so many people, had the debate which included the opinion of the CCA chair, and ABP chair, passed with an overwhelming majority, and then was squashed at the AGM? Why farmers_son? And don't tell us again how other things are more important.

ABP will need to become part of the democratic process now as testing becomes reality. The train is moving on like per says. However the question will now always remain in many of our minds. Does ABP speak for the producers or after the next step is made, should ABP be held accountable and be thrown off the gravy train with no more levy.

All this farmer_son, because ABP refused to listen. I think that there is a place for an industry wide organisation, but one that shows that they are not afraid to listen to their producers. Obviously to me after the AGM, change will not be allowed to happen with anywhere near the kind of speed needed. If ABP/CCA wants to continue to fight the one issue that as Diamond says is more about Democracy than anything, they might be in fight for their very lives as an organisation very very soon.



Why do you keep deflecting and neglect from answering the question farmers_son? Why do you think that a few folks, who are not truly democratically elected to their positions, or at the very least do not follow democratic guidelines,should be
allowed to dictate their opinion to the producers of this country?

Why is ABP/CCA so afraid of a plebiscite?

[BFW]

I am always amazed when the ABP stands behind "the democratic process" when trying to defend their various positions when in fact there is precious little democracy practiced by them at all. Sure there are elections held across the province to give everyone a fair chance at office. Why then, do we have so few elections and so many people feeling disenfranchised by the whole process?

In my opinion it is because the ABP's mandate is created by legislation under the Agricultural Products Marketing Act giving them the power to tax (checkoff) and if required enforce certain regulations on the industry. The non refundable tax has caused the organization to lose touch with its members and created a big enough bureaucracy that any challenge to the checkoff is cannot be viewied objectively and so the status quo is maintained. Clearly the checkoff is a major cause of the ABP's losing touch with the producer. Simply, they don't have to as long as the money keeps coming.

[grassfarmer]

Rod, I agree with your analysis of the role of producer organisations and how they should work in a democracy. There is a big problem here though that is not the fault of ABP - producer apathy. Democracy is not something that you install once and then forget about it needs to be constantly worked on and defended. This is where we run into problems in Alberta - if less than 5% of producers bother to attend fall producer meetings the democracy can't work. This is how dictatorships flourish. I beat my head against the wall trying to motivate producers to get involved, they seem either too lazy, too disinterested or to disillusioned with ABP to care. Of the ones I speak to most are in the first two categories although I know there are people out there who tried to reform ABP/ACC in the past with no success and will not get involved again.
I have friends and neighbours who sell cattle, pay levy and don't know who or what ABP are. Some are very concerned with the state of the beef industry but don't bother to read the ABP mailings or attend the meetings.
I don't know the answer to this problem but before we can make radical changes to the ABP dictatorship we need to find a way to get producers motivated to get involved.

A good example of the need to change is the fact that ABP defeated 2 resolutions at their AGM to limit packer ownership of fed cattle - why? Why will ABP not try to fight the packer control issue that is keeping our beef returns low? At the same time ABP continues to fight the idea that BSE testing for marketing purposes should be allowed. Personally I don't know if there is a market for BSE tested beef, or if there is a live test that will work on BSE or even if that is relevant - but I would support all of these proposals if they had any chance of removing the power from the hands of the corporations who control us and giving it back to producers. I see no justifiable reason why ABP will not support these aims either.

[per]

farmers_son you refer to the people who use Agri-ville as on the fringe or in the minority. This same conversation takes place in other places as well. In real coffee shops, in grain terminals, in auction markets, at the Christmas dinner table, and the same question always comes up. Why don't you add testing to your toolbox. My city friends and oil patch friends do follow this issue and are as baffled over our industry groups stand as I am. Of course most of them are business entrepreneurs and are always looking for something that will make them a step Ahead not just instep. There are so many issues to deal with in this industry and we need to tackle them all. Or maybe we should bury our heads on the other challenges and they might go away too...NOT. Lets face this thing head on like our forfathers and maybe make them proud.

[Willowcreek]

rkaiser posted Jan 1, 2008 10:09
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And a true ABP/CCA response from farmer_son.

_____________________________________

Hey kaiser--This guy reminds me of the same speech we down here hear from our NCBA --"you'all are just lowly little whiney cowmen, now don't be telling us big impotent industry leaders how we'll run your industry...Them thar folks don't have all the insider knowledge that we get from our impotent position..." LOL

SAME-O SAME-O...They can't think beyond the pimple on their hind end at any new ideas- in their battle to maintain the status quo for the benefit of the multinationals...

[farmers_son]

Willowcreek...your concern for the Canadian cattle industry is truly touching. The only new idea R-Calf has is to find ways to put Canadian cattle producers out of business. To that end I can see why R-Calf would want our industry to focus on BSE testing while the U.S. slips in COOL.

BSE tesing is a 2004 issue. It is 2008 and COOL is where Canadian cattle producers need to focus their energies. Canadian cattle producers need to know that when R-Calf split up a lot of R-Calf supporters gave up on the court challenges and have moved their support to COOL. COOL cannot be ignored.

[DiamondSCattleCo]

So you feel that the majority of producers do not support third party BSE testing for increasing market access?

Man, are you out of touch. Perhaps its time you started paying some attention to your constituents. Get out and talk to them, find out what they think is really important. I know I have, beyond what I read on the internet.

And I'm not sure if you completely understood my first post farmers_son, so I'll spell it out for you again. COOL or not, whats important IS WHAT WE PRODUCERS TELL YOU IS IMPORTANT.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Rod

[farmers_son]

You are right. It is crucial that organizations representing cattle producers listen to those producers. The challenge is producers are saying different things at the same time.

During the BSE crisis everyone wanted action, everyone wanted the problem fixed and no one was in a position to wait very long for solutions. Producers were saying our cattle industry should do a lot of things, from we should have supply management, portable slaughter plants or government funded packing plants, BSE testing of course, burning cows in stockpiles, never ship beef to the U.S. again and take over beef exports to Japan.

All of those suggestions had some validity but the common thread was live cattle prices had to improve. During BSE our cattle organizations and government too worked together in what I would say was an unprecedented manner to basically save our industry from disaster. By September 2003 boxed beef trade had resumed with the U.S. and in January 2005 Rule 1 was announced that saw live cattle trade resume across the 49th parallel. In 2007 Rule 2 was announced and now we can ship cows and cow beef to the U.S. All during this period trade did resume with overseas markets with limited trade to Japan.

Live cattle prices did recover but not to the level they were prior to 2003. Some of that may be due to the lingering effects of BSE, especially the costs of SRM removal, but we cannot overlook the change in the Canadian dollar and the effects of stronger grain prices driven by subsidized ethanol production.

A course of action was taken with positive results. Given the multitude of directions producers wanted the cattle industry to take, it was impossible to do everything that everyone wanted and it will never be possible to please everyone all the time. Yes there were calls from some producers for BSE testing but there were calls for a lot of other things too.

In the midst of it all Canada did a great job of keeping the confidence of our domestic beef consumer who always was and remains today our number one customer. And live cattle and beef trade resumed with the United States which is the world's number one importer of beef and the market which Canada has special NAFTA access to. If we did not have that live cattle trade with the U.S. today weaned calf prices would be lower than they were during the worst of the BSE crisis.

Decisions had to be made but that does not mean industry was not listening to cattle producers.

[per]

Farmers_son of course BSE is a 2004 issue. Our industry and our industry leaders failed to deal with it in 2004 so it is still here. We need to deal with it now before another year passes.

COOL is a 2008 issue as well so it also needs to be dealt with. No arguement there.

[rkaiser]

Cool could be dealt with by offering American consumers a BSE tested product.

Your post makes it sound like ABP/CCA were the ones who got the border open to boxed beef farmers_son. What a joke. Cargill, Tyson, and the USDA opened the border to boxed beef and created the most lucrative captive market in history. If our industry leadership that you want to pat on the back had embraced testing for export marketing purposes at that time - our world would not look the same as it does now. Dollar - Cool - grain prices whatever.

[DiamondSCattleCo]

One question farmers_son: If COOL is so important, why is the ABP/CCA wasting time and resources STANDING IN THE WAY OF TESTING? Seems to me if all these other things are way more important, then you should simply get the hell out of the way of those who want to test.

By the way, nice deflection in your post. Anyone ever tell you that you make a great politician? Not much of a representative to the people, but a great politician none-the-less.

And since you mention it, the live cattle prices haven't been "fixed" by tying us to the US market. Take that to your ABP/CCA powers. If you didn't catch the sarcasm in my earlier post, maybe I'll spell it out: Only a fool ties themselves to a single customer. By standing against BSE testing, you're tying us EVEN CLOSER to a single customer for our beef, costing us millions of dollars each year. I hope Hugh and the rest of you realize just how much money you've cost the Canadian cattle producer.

Rod

[per]

I wonder if someone could enlighten me in regards to this BSE issue.

Why are we afraid of allowing testing? Is it because it is going to be cumbersome? Expensive? What about revealing? If we had an epidemic should we hide it? Is this the legacy we want to leave? Is it a food safety issue or a trade issue or both?

Farmers_Son, you come across as an intelligent man. Lets hear the answer to these questions again. Is putting our heads in the sand the best option?

BSE free Canadian Beef would make a nice COOL label as rkaiser pointed out. Wow, deal with those pesky testy guys and COOL at the same time.