What are your thought on this?

[ASRG]

On another site I read an interesting conversation about how farmers and ranchers provide ecological benifits for all society, without being paid for it?
Whether it is providing habitat for wildlife, protecting sensitive fauna and flora, or filtering for watersheds, society benifits but pays nothing for it?
The argument was if compensation was too great, owners would pursue protection at the expense of production, and that could create more problems?
How can we balance ecology with production.....and more importantly how do we get paid to do it?

[15444]

Bad idea. As soon as you start paying for something, you want a voice as to how it is run/operated. I might decide you've got too many cows for the land/water base and say cut your herd to 25%, plant 25,000 trees in your pastures every year for the next ten years and quit tilling the soil, or better yet, we the people are going to meter your fuel usage. Give you so much a month allowance and then fine you if you go over at the end of the month by one of our inspection officers.

People have mentioned this 'get paid for the environment' on here before and I swear they must have an urge to have the government run their everyday life. Must not be getting enough action in the bedroom; need an extra person in the bed with a name tag to tell them if their doing it right.

[ASRG]

I guess the flip side is the government is probably going to bring in all those kind of controls anyway?
It seems every year they ban this, don't allow that?
In my county they recently brought in this "environmentally sensitive areas" thing? Mostly crumby old brush land. You can't develop it or do much of anything on it. The real kicker though is oil and gas are exempt.....they can drill it, pipeline it, put up gas plants, compressor stations, drilling waste pits......no problem! But don't try to subdivide an acreage!

[per]

15444 your in a dream world if you don't think this is going to happen. Ever heard of ALSA, get yourself a copy of the SSRP RAC report and then a copy of the Plan for Parks. When you are done reading them there are several other reports that overlay them as well as the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Resources federal road tour that is on the way as we speak. If we think we can hide we will surely get exactly what you are afraid of. Our option is limited to having the conversation not being an ostrich.

[smcgrath76]

If you read the other thread you likely
know my thoughts and what we have done.
I agree 100% with per that rules and
regs are going to happen with or without
us. We need to proactively engage to
produce a system that at least provides
a reward structure rather than just a
penalty or operational cost.
If we produce cattle or grain it has
value because society wants it and
someone is willing to pay for it.
Society in the long run will have to
decide what it values and is willing to
pay for. If EG&S pays better than
canola, people will grow EG&S, when
grain pays better than cows, people
break up pastures and grow grain.
I think producer driven, flexible market
is the best, but there has to be
accountability too. We sell source and
health documented cattle. We buy
vehicles with warranty and sign legal
contracts with assurances attached. I
am not sure selling EG&S can be any
different.

[Horse]

asrg How do we get paid? Get an grazing lease and become a ( stewart of the land) you get asked to perticirpate in such things as cows and fish or sustanable agg and the tax payer pays your bills and of course dont forget the oil nmoney, and when you are too tired of packing all those free bees to the bank you can SELL ops I mean assing your little gfem to the soninlaw or whoever and run the scam allover again.
Too bad some of us have to buy our land and pay full value on rented land.

[ALLFARMER]

Not to many reg's here. This 750 quarters that
sold, basically do what ever you want with it.
neighbors directed a small river of water my way
and virtually ended another. I asked a guy from
Alberta environment when does a water run
become a creek? Fair question, he grimaced and
said basically if your not rerouting or stopping it
you can contour it to get farm equipment thru. If
you want they will come out and have a look....
Ya lots of guts taking them up on that offer ..lol.

[Hopperbin]

I remember lately a local Chinese lady restaurant owner confessed she wished to sell her restaurant, bus stop. She intended to sell it to her brother from Hong Kong. So she advertised it and a chinese busines man wanted to buy it so bad he bid upwards to 400 thousand. She sold it to her brother for 60 thousand. Just saying if a Chinese wants to buy land? Sell them 10 acres for the same price as 160. Selling to chinese 101.

[Hopperbin]

When I ask myself what my land would be worth today if broke today and cleared rocks picked dug drainage ditches and have to put the same fert as have to use today. What is that land worth? The answer to that question is why i used the aged equiptment that I used. I have been set up in farming from my parents yet I did not agrree with buying the newest machinery and it was the correct choice for me.

[Hopperbin]

If a chinese person wants to buy your land, if price is a problem, offer it to them half the acres for double the money.

[15444]

Per, I don't follow the Alberta regs closely. Being that your province is regarded to be the last bastion of capitalism in this country, I can't see it being worse than the regs in the rest of the country. If it is so bad, I guess its a question of how much freedom people are willing to give up.

The way you guys talk up and down about ALUS, I'm surprised there isn't a fund started to assassinate that premier of yours and maybe a few cabinet ministers. But I guess it's not that bad. It's blatantly obvious that the rest of the province doesn't really see it being a concern. So what makes you think its worth paying for?

[ASRG]

Horse: I have never owned a grazing lease.

A long time ago the courts decided a leasee owns an interest in real property? I don't believe any government should be able to just take real property without compensation or deny access to the courts, however that is what the Land Stewardship Act (Bill 36) proposes.

If we condone the taking of real property(the leasee's interest), how can we protest when they come for our "fee simple" interest in private property? Today we let the Crown steal one guys property rights....tomorrow they come for ours!

I don't see why anyone can't get that?

Whenever any government puts restrictions on your land, they are diminishing your property rights....restricting what you can do with your property is a partial taking of your property? You should be compensated for that?

However this was not the point I was trying to make....the point was: should I be compensated for providing ecological benifits for the public good? Maybe not if I do it of my own free will.....but what about if I am forced to provide the benifit for free through legislation? Again that is what the Land Stewardship Act is proposing? Should I be compensated?

If I have a section of bush that provides habitat for all kinds of wildlife, should I be able to brush it, break it, and grow canola? What if the government says no we want to preserve that land for wildlife.....should I be compensated or am I forced to leave it in bush for the "public good"?

[SASKFARMER3]

Hopper I think my one neighbor is going to
get a surprise come fall. Yes he has some
Cash for his troubles, I would have waited
on buying the Lake Front Cabin "wink
wink".
I dont trust these new so called
imigrants. Just like the Scams happening
in REgina where one family can bring in 20
plus then all of a sudden their on way to
toronto.

[SASKFARMER3]

http://seekingalpha.com/article/540891-
resilient-recessionary-hedge-18-companies-
with-large-farmland-holdings

[per]

15444, no one here has any appetite for a non democratic solution. Interesting you mention the democratic process though. You make the assumption that those of us on this side of the argument are Wildrose supporters so let's look at the numbers. 34% voted WR, 44% PC. The Libs had 90,000 less votes this time than the last election. Did they not vote? Of course they did, they voted for the new close to liberals, the PC's. If they hadn't, the numbers would have been the other way around. They voted strategically for status quo (a Redford style of status). Why? This might explain it.

In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh ,

had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent
...
form of government.

A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can

vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.

From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the

most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally

collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has

been about 200 years.


None of that means we are not correct in our vocalisations. It just shows what we are up against.