Should farming be intensive or extensive?

[cakadu]

Recently, I heard a couple of fellows speaking about how there is room for all farming practices - right from conventional all the way through to organic and everything in between. One fellow referred to extensive farming as those practices that are similar to conventional farming practices that help to maintain production but reduce inputs. He saw extensive farming as those practices that make ecological systems more efficient. To do this, you need to look at each farm and the location it is in. Intensive farming, according to him, were crops developed at centralized locations and using centralized systems.

He went on to say that organically grown produce is not necessarily sound or ecologically friendly because you need to look at the area in which it is produced.

Another fellow who was into organic practices says that the organic farmer has not been subsidized like conventional farming has been through research and the breeding practices over the past 50 years.

What do you feel about these statements and how do we reconcile all these different idealistic methods for farming? How long will it be before we can speak with one united voice?

[cowman]

I think all these systems can work if we can just be tolerant with each other and realize there is no "right way" only different ways. What works for me might not work for you and we all have different standards when it comes to how we produce food. If our food safety agencies say it's safe, we have to accept their expertise. That doesn't mean we have to use every spray or chemical in the book.
Organic products are fine but your average consumer cannot afford them. Sprays,chem. fertilizer, and growth promotants have allowed farmers to produce an abundance of healthy food at a cheap price. Organics are still a very small market(although growing fast) and don't deserve a lot of research etc. because they don't have the volume/value of conventional farming.

[pandiana]

Farming, like every business is profit-driven. Intensive, extensive, organic, specialty, exotic, cooperatives all involve strategies to make a living at farming. Whatever option is chosen, 'success' is defined in the short term is money left over after paying bills.
Because environmental concerns do not pay, they will always take a back seat to the realities and immediacy of paying bills. Changes in our environment are frequently very subtle and may take decades to be noticed, especially if you are not looking for them. However, I don't know of anyone who can afford to be altruistic or idealistic if they are not in the black. In todays market, for most the day to day struggle involved with growing and harvesting are frequently more than enough for farmers to cope with. If farmers have money left over at the end of the year most would be very happy to upgrade shelterbelts, build livestock shelters, etc. and turn there attention to environmental concerns.
For years we have listened to politicians, farm consultants etc tell us we must become more efficient. Just recently in Alberta, the buzz word has become more 'innovative'. I can't help wonder how more innovative farmers can get and stay in business.

[cowman]

I remember reading an article a few years ago about a beef farmer in England. He only had 27 cows and something like 80 acres of land. His income was pretty impressive because the government paid him a good subsidy on each animal as well as a price for not cutting down his hedgerows(something in the neighborhood of $20,000!). he also got paid about $16,000/yr. for letting birdwatchers and hikers on his land. This guy had an income of about $125,000/yr.! From 27 cows and 80 acres!! He didn't need to pollute the land,water, and air with chemicals and manure. But then they value those things over there and are prepared to pay for a pristine countryside. Here, no one cares...or at least they don't care enough to pay for it!

[ianben]

Hi Cowman.
Don't know where you got those facts from to get that sort of income he must of been getting paid for some sort of research project.
Our subsidies dont pay the all the bills. You could think of them as your crop insurance, income protection, and ducks unlimited rolled into one.
Could you get by on the income you would get from these and more importantly would you want to?
We have a mix of systems here just like you from very very intensive to extensive some organic but not sure I call that extensive just different rules.
You guys have more unspoilt areas though we have nothing like your national and prov. parks.

Have you ever thought what it is like with 60million people on a small island.

Thats why our land has a totally different value which is often unrelated to its agricultural suitability.
Location Location Location

Regards Ian

[cowman]

Ian: I believe the article was in the Canadian Cattleman magazine but I'm not real sure about that, as it was a few years ago.
What I was trying to point out was how Europe values their countryside and backs it up with money while over here there is no value placed on it. Our country values cheap food at any cost including the environment. That is what has made North America an industrial power. And I say North America because in reality we are just an off shoot of the U.S.A. We are one people and eventually one country.

[ianben]

Hi Cowman
I am just trying to show it is not that great here either
I believe we have the same problems no matter where we farm.
We do have some enviromental schemes here but the barn owl or frog did not stop the road through my farm.
Its all down to votes as I am sure it is in Canada.
Take GM foods; post BSE; no British government is going to allow GM over here. Public opinion and the media would make it political suicide.
Watch out for BSE though seems to be getting round the world now. If you look for something you soon find it.
Public reaction seems the same when they see the pictures on the TV. Everyone stops eating beef for a few months causing havoc for prices. Still not sorted out over here after five years. Farmers just too optimistic and unlike airlines no-one will reduce supply. My only solution was to get out altogether.
Have you ever thought about what would happen if BSE was found in Canada?

Regards Ian

[cowman]

Ian: We did have one case of BSE here a few years ago. The federal Ag dept. moved in real quick and slaughtered the herd as well as a lot of other cattle. This was an imported animal. We do have a pretty good inspection service in this country. If we were to get an outbreak of BSE or foot and mouth it would be devastating because we export so much beef to the U.S. I believe it would ruin our industry.
Over here there is generally little concern about GM foods. Most of the canola grown here is Round-up ready and it really is good stuff. Sure cleans up the weeds! It pretty well is a non-issue over here.

[jensco]

In answer to the question...I don't believe that all farming has to be one or the other. I'm sure a mix of types keeps an industry stronger rather than weaker. However, it does often create conflict.

As far as research money goes...I think it should go where the knowledge is needed not necessarily which area produces the most value.

I do agree that North Americans are not willing to support their environment most of the time. When a crisis occurs, then the attention is elevated. However, most people don't appreciate when it affects their pocketbook. It's unfortunate but reality and I hope there will not be too many regrets in the future.