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The intended end game of Canada US relations

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    The intended end game of Canada US relations

    First off, we have almost* no bargaining chips in any negotiations with the US, and that holds especially true as long as our own useful idiots continue to help obstruct any pipelines to tidewater. Any concessions an increasingly isolationist US makes towards us are due only to their own good graces, not due to anything we have to offer, and certainly not due to our extraordinary negotiating abilities.

    However, in order to be completely energy independent in the long term, and to keep their refineries running as they are currently designed, they do and will need our heavy oil, potentially our Uranium, and likely some rare earth's and other minerals.

    The era of colonialism is mostly extinct, militarily taking over another country is no longer in vogue, nor necessary in the era of economic warfare.

    So, push Canada to the brink, block all attempts to export our oil elsewhere, threaten(and most likely succeed) to block all trade and exports, sow dissent, particularly east vs. west, and between levels of government, turn industry, business and primary producers against the government. Watch us squirm, and starve economically long enough, and many will come to the inevitable conclusion that if you can't beat them, join them. The carrot and the stick, once the stick has been exhausted, switch to the carrot, one at a time, pick off the productive or strategic provinces or regions with offer pipelines, or resumption of trade, with them laying out all of the terms, and us grateful to have a lifeline of any sort. Thanks to Quebec, provinces have the right and the ability to leave confederation, and Manifest Destiny has never entirely gone away. Which is an indirect way of saying, we will become American states, or jurisdictions of some description out of desperation.

    If you subscribe to this rationale, and I'm sure most Canadians don't( most choose to ignorantly claim their entire identity is to be Anti-American, rather than anything positive or definable, but that is another debate), but, if you think this is the eventual end game, and the intention of these tactics, regardless of who is president, and what party is in power, wouldn't we be better off taking the initiative sooner rather than later, and bargaining while we still have a modicum of leverage, rather than waiting until desperation sets in and we are forced to beg for the crumbs? In the case of the western provinces, we have nothing to gain under the current scenario, and it appears to be only getting worse, and potentially a lot to be gained by joining the US, especially if we were to play one federal government against the other as to who can offer the best terms.

    Yes, it would destroy confidence in Canada's currency, and scare off investment, but if things continue in the direction they are heading, those things are happening anyways, the difference is a slow bleed vs. abrupt. Conditions for those remaining in the confederation will be much worse, and motivation to follow suit, much stronger, even while their negotiating position gets ever weaker.

    Pretending we are a sovereign country that doesn't need the US is complete lunacy, just look at our trade numbers, look at our almost complete lack of military, look at the length of our shared borders, our intertwined infrastructure and intelligence, and our inability to even patrol our own shores. We exist as a separate entity in name only, and purely due to the US allowing it to be so.

    While the concept is completely unpalatable to most Canadians, I ask them to please offer an alternative scenario. Flame away...
    Last edited by AlbertaFarmer5; Sep 20, 2018, 00:39.

    #2
    Works for me, the American Democrats are freaking nuts though.
    I think investment in Canada is now at a low point. Companies and investors are waiting for the election next fall. If Liberals win another term it will be over for Canada for a decade. The dollar will be worthless. Climate Barbie keeps talking about her Billion Dollar Green Economy, without having a ****in clue what she is talking about.

    Comment


      #3
      I think that's one of 2 scenarios of why Harper went to meet with them. He s sold us out to either seperate or have them not make a deal and Harper would some how gain some kind of retribution for the emberrassing loss he caused.

      Why didn't Harper get the cross country pipeline built or the transmiuntain?

      Who made the nafta deal without putting a provision in that in the event that a childish nut becomes a mistake leader and wants to change all the rules it can't be done without huge payment of money for a certain time to allow the affected countries adjust?

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        #4
        They need our lumber, uranium, oil.water and many many more resources they can have all the manufacturing they want but without resources they are limited and will suffer also. China and Russia have access to all this and will leave the USA standing still. So no way in hell we don't hold some power. Just can't be pussies and give it away. Shut the oil off they don't have many options and less everyday to sustain that population for long.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by the big wheel View Post
          They need our lumber, uranium, oil.water and many many more resources they can have all the manufacturing they want but without resources they are limited and will suffer also. China and Russia have access to all this and will leave the USA standing still. So no way in hell we don't hold some power. Just can't be pussies and give it away. Shut the oil off they don't have many options and less everyday to sustain that population for long.
          You are about 10 years behind the times, no longer true.

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            #6
            Originally posted by Taiga View Post
            Works for me, the American Democrats are freaking nuts though.
            And the religious right is equally nuts on the other extreme. But somehow, in spite of those impediments, they still manage to have one of the only growing functional economies in the world right now.

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              #7
              I like your line of thought AF. But remove the east west border and drive south from western Canada, the people are all the same. Civil wars aren't one off situations, it'll come around again whether peacefully or violently it'll depend. I see both Canada and the US splitting up individually. What is it about living beside water that leaves people thinking they should decide how everyone else should live? Split the continent into 3 with north south borders and everyone will get along. North America is getting polarized, those that want to inflict their ways and views onto others and those that want to be left alone. Separation whether in Canada or US is a lot closer then the majority believe.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by macdon02 View Post
                I like your line of thought AF. But remove the east west border and drive south from western Canada, the people are all the same. Civil wars aren't one off situations, it'll come around again whether peacefully or violently it'll depend. I see both Canada and the US splitting up individually. What is it about living beside water that leaves people thinking they should decide how everyone else should live? Split the continent into 3 with north south borders and everyone will get along. North America is getting polarized, those that want to inflict their ways and views onto others and those that want to be left alone. Separation whether in Canada or US is a lot closer then the majority believe.
                My dad always said the same thing. The continent was split the wrong direction, the border defies geography and industry. The border or borders should be North South, and I have no doubt that will happen sooner or later, like you say.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View Post
                  While the concept is completely unpalatable to most Canadians, I ask them to please offer an alternative scenario. Flame away...
                  ....The status quo - it's worked fine for 150 years. This is all just hollow talk because your guy didn't win the election, get over it already. What if there were a Harper type leader in Canada and "crooked Hilary" in the US? - would you still be wishing you were living under American rule? If you really love the US so much move there and leave Canada for those that love Canada.

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                    #10
                    When you have breakfast with your kids or have your grandkids over think about having a law where they have to enlist to go fight wars so that oil companies can keep their profits. Then plan the next one and pick which ones won't be at the table? Too many of you sugar coat what becoming another state would mean.


                    Wonder if all the treaties would
                    Become void if a proposed separation was put in place? Or would the First Nations become the richest group in Canada? The only way they would allow
                    A sale would be trillions in money where would that leave the rest of us? You think the oil companies would feel sorry for us poor white boys? Hahahaha and even if we were left to control our own lands would we be able to fulfill the duties to the First Nations if our resources were taken for nothing. Which is what is happenning now. We should be the richest country in the world.

                    The changes you seem to desire would not result in everything good like the spin has it portrayed.

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                      #11
                      You guys are way overselling canada. The US is not desperate for our resources. They have all they need in spades. There is an ocean of oil under alaska, offshore and in Wyoming. All untapped. US could offset our supply to them in a heartbeat. They are not going to be protectionist, they are going to be the worlds first trade independent nation and way stronger as a result.

                      Canada is something different. Its a northern buffer zone to russian aggression. We are a geography play with nice people to boot. Nothing more. And they let us play in their economic sandbox as a reward. Now we are getting all uppity and going to bring it all down.

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                        #12
                        Does it make a difference if we're being developed by Chinese money anyway??

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Agree Jazz, but Freeland thinks that negotiations taking 13 months is normal, and they last till 7 o’clock in the morning sometimes. Because she wants to “strengthen labour negotiations and gender equality, but overall Canada’s insistence that an agreement contains an independent dispute-settlement mechanism. “ WFP September 20.
                          Yeah, gender, independent mechanism etc.
                          Can you get any nuttier. 13 months to reinvent the wheel.
                          God help us.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by grassfarmer View Post
                            ....The status quo - it's worked fine for 150 years. This is all just hollow talk because your guy didn't win the election, get over it already. What if there were a Harper type leader in Canada and "crooked Hilary" in the US? - would you still be wishing you were living under American rule? If you really love the US so much move there and leave Canada for those that love Canada.
                            First of all, I don't have a guy in federal politics. But more importantly, it wouldn't have mattered who was in charge, here, or south of the border, as the US becomes energy independent, they are also becoming more isolationist. It was at worst, bad timing that we ended up with a diametrically opposed political philosophies at this critical time. I don't see how the end result would be any different though if anyone else was in power, it is just easier to lay blame with this batch.

                            This isn't a temporary phenomenon, it will continue once sanity prevails in US politics, it would still have occurred, albeit at a more measured tone under Hillary, Conservatives would have been equally without bullets if they had been in power.

                            Yes, for the last half of our 150 year history it has worked fine, and that coincides with the US needing us in their fight of the cold war, and needing our energy. They woke up and realized the cold war is over, and they are nearly energy independent. Relations for the entirety of our collective memories just came to an end, our model only works if the US permits it to, and they just stopped letting us play in their sandbox.

                            As a beef farmer you must be aware that 75% of our beef exports go to the US, what does your business model look like without that customer?

                            Since you love Canada, please define Canada, and what you love about it, using only positives, not by comparing us to Americans.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by AlbertaFarmer5 View Post
                              And the religious right is equally nuts on the other extreme. But somehow, in spite of those impediments, they still manage to have one of the only growing functional economies in the world right now.
                              Agreed, I don’t like religious influence of any kind in government.

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