Shouldn't the CWB go to jail?

[parsley]

Had an old uncle who swore up and down the dial telephone would be the end of his community. He smiled and nodded when we argued with him, too.

Parsley

[ianben]

Here are some postings from a UK site on pool selling

I sell some of my hereward wheat in a pool system to make famous quality bread, and the autumn pool has been finalised at £80.98 less £2.25 marketing fee = £78.73.

I sold some of the same parcel, to the same merchant for £80, and was moved at the same time.

This isnt the first time I have out performed the pool, am I just lucky or do others find this?



Pools will have finalised that price after selling 100% of the grain for that period. What percentage of milling wheat did you sell at that level?. Pools will try to achieve a higher average price by selling little and often, usually when the market peaks.
If your merchant(who is selling your pool grain) advised you to sell the rest at £80.00 and you did, It was advice well taken. If it was done off your own back then well done!
Pools are a way of managing risk, they are not for working miracles!!.




The danger of pool selling is not to you but the market as a whole. We all know that if we are lucky you will beat the pool but it is pure luck! but one thing you can be certain is that you can do worse than the pool because that one sale might be at the very bottom of the market.
The problem for the overall market is that pools keep selling they have to shift the quantity so if they have 100,000 tonnes committed to an autumn pool they will keep selling whatever the trade. Farmers individually have a point below which psychologically they do not want to go so unless the bank is getting very serious they just will not sell below certain points which puts a base into the trade, pools on the other hand keep selling as they know that having already sold grain at a higher price the average price will always appear better at the end of the term of selling.


The more I look into pools I think you must admit they have to keep selling if they are to sell all the grain comitted.

This must have the effect of lowering prices dont you think?

Pools must reduce individual risk though!

Would a minimum price pool work better?

ie If you put 100tonnes in pool with min of £80 60% of sales are over £80 so you sell only 60tonnes

[parsley]

ianben,

Most pooling systems reflect selling for the BEST price possible.

Wheat Board pools do not reflect the best pooled price because they legislatively operate to sell for "what they think is reasonable", according to the CWB Act. The last time the Act was opened up, many wanted the Act to state, "for the best price possible", but it remained unchanged.

A reasonable price and the best price possible can be world's apart, and our pooling accounts can attest to that.

Parsley

[henbent]

kernel,parsley,TOM4CWB,ianben, I am certain that you fellows already know that the CWB each year does the responsible thing and holds back a % of premium grain. I believe this is for a common sense reason, in other words to make sure we in this country have food, and I'm told for customers that pay us in the premium market. In the event of a disaster, such as a bad drought like this year.
It could be said that in a purely open market system, where supply and demand rule, all the bins in the nation would be empty if the price was high and everything was sold. Then farmers would get the respect they deserve, feeding the world and first of all our nation. My point is, that we have never really been hungry, I mean really hungry. Canada is committed to a policy of cheap food, so the masses can concentrate on other things, like making a living doing accounting or whatever.
By the way, I'm working on Income Tax right now. TOM4CWB, if you said CC & Revenue should be in jail, I'd whole heartedly agree with you!!

[henbent]

Henbent: Your hanging in pretty good, but you have stated nothing that gives us real prove that the CWB is the only way to market grain. You live on the fear that grain co. or private corportations will steal you blind and leave you wanting for government protection. State to me some hard evidence that the CWB is keeping the wolf away from the door. Don't give me rumor and old wifes tales of the 1930's.

In 1943 when the government made the CWB the monopoly buyer of wheat. The CWB had to raise their price from 87 cents a bushel to a $1.23 that the WCE was paying. Now who would be gouging who back then. Then after the war the CWB made a deal with the UK to supply them with 300 Million bushels of wheat over four years at a $1.55 a bushel while the US open market price ranged between $2.25 and $3.00/bu. This was in my formal years when my dad was farming and workin two jobs to support us, Thanks alot CWB and the government.

Rod Flaman and Ken Ritter say they have seen evidence of the CWB obtaining a premium for wheat but will not supply any detail of their findings. Jim Chatnay hasn't seen any prove of premiums and can't get answers to 21 questions he has asked. I think if the CWB wants to continue on as the monopoly seller of wheat and barley. The directors better start answering the questions that farmers want answers to.

Art Macklin is a seed farmer, what is his big interest in the CWB, Political?

[TOM4CWB]

Kernel;

The interesting part of the 5 year wheat agreement after 1947, was that England made over a dollar a bushel extra, on most of the sales through this time period...

Now, at least during this period, if a farmer wanted to take a risk, and sell certified seed into the commercial world market... this was allowed, just as was a farmer direct hauling of his own wheat across the US border himself.

Henbent;

Did you know that Federal Income tax collection in Canada is a voluntary system?

Some who have gone to jail... would say that I am crazy... but the facts are the Supreme Court of Canada made numerous rulings in the past 75years ruling that the provinces constitutionally have the right to collect tax from the individual citizen... but not the federal government...

Grain News had an excelent article on this issue a few years back...

Canadian Law operates on a very weird system...

Mostly because Great Britain gave independance to the provinces in 1931... the Statute of Westminster... and the Federal gov. was left responsible for defence and foreign policy... to the extent that was needed and funded by agreement of the provinces...

The Statute of Westminster was intended to be a temporary interm solution... until the provinces got to work and created a real federation... which never happened...

Proof of the strange state of affairs... is that in 1952... the British courts overturned the Supreme Court of Canada ruling... on the Canadian Wheat Board expropriation of wheat and barley during WWII...

Self interest was inherent in the British ruling... as the Brits were getting cheap wheat and barley from the 5 year agreement... they had signed with the CWB/CDN Gov.

In 1931, the Supreme Court of Sask. ruled that neither the Sask. gov. or the CDN. Gov. could individually set up a grain marketing monopoly... without concurring legislation from both levels of provincial and federal governments working in agreement...

This is why supply management is structured the way it is in Canada today... provincially mandated... with federal government overarching all the provincial scheemes... if a province opts out of supply management... they have that right. In 1973 the Alberta gov. removed the CWB enabling legislation from Alberta Law statutes...

THe history of the CWB is a tangled legal web... to say the least!

[parsley]

tom4CWB,

What does, "England made over a dollar a bushel extra", mean?

Parsley

[TOM4CWB]

Parsley;

I am told that Great Britian had the right through the 5 year wheat agreement to buy the wheat at a set price... but obviously also had the right to divert the shipments to wherever they wanted... and charge additional amounts to those who eventually bought this Canadian wheat...

A real question arises, today, if this is not happening on at least some of the CWB "price discrimination" lower sales values made to some countries the CWB deals with today.

FOR those who are intesested in the constitutional references I wrote about above, here are some of the legal references:

The Majesty the King v. Eastern Terminal Elevator Company [1925] SCR 434 (Exch. Crt.)) the lurking fallacies; Joint Federal BNA Act 91(2), Provincial BNA Act 92(13,16) Jurisdiction required for BNA Act 91(2) to be operational.

This was confirmed in Saskatchewan Law Reports [1931] Saskatchewan Court of Appeal, In RE The Grain Marketing Act 1931, Page 285. The Honourable J. A. Turgeon ruled;

“It was therefore the true intention of The British North American Act that Parliament should exercise the important jurisdiction conferred upon it by 91(2) in such a manner as not to interfere, except perhaps indirectly and incidentally, with civil rights in the provinces, these rights being left in their substance to the control of the local Legislatures."

THIS 1931 reference case was done because the Sask. gov. wanted to turn the SWP into a monopoly buyer of all Sask. wheat.

[henbent]

kernel, parsley, TOM4CWB, My argument for the CWB has always been the same, common sense must apply. Pooling doesn't always get the best price, but neither does the open market. A stable organized market system does though, allow us all a chance to farm, with some sense of stability. Sure I don't produce the highest quality of grain at times, I bet even you guys don't. The system absorbs it all, stir and mix and produce an acceptable product. What is wrong with everyone, making a decent living. Bigger is better, you say, everyone for himself. The law of the jungle should be applied, so the 20% of us who grow 80% of the grain can prevail. I think not, Mom and Pop operations deserve to exist too!! The way you guys describe the Canadian law leads me to believe that anarchy isn't far off. I am not using old wives tales when a pro-board stance is taken, the truth hurts. Guys, don't enslave yourselves to the farm, enjoy the experience, if all else fails you can sell out to the big guy next door, he'll drive a hard bargin, but in the end volume economics will prevail and he'll buy your stump ranch.

The system is changing, although slowly and good decisions and bad decisions will be made in future. But to trash the system, because it MIGHT get better is stupid. Look how the huge terminals and railroad have helped to date, money is flowing back to us now that they are so efficient. The CWB speaks with clout on issues which directly effect farmers. What multi-national grain or railroad company will listen, when Joe-Schmoo speaks out?

[dnach]

henbent,the problem is that 'no-one' is making a decent living, espeacialy with board grains. The only crops that keep our farm alive are non-board grains, oilseeds and speacialty crops. One thing tp keep in mind about the big 'multi-nationals', they make a living off of us, we do not need them to make a living. Ues this leverage it is very powerfull.