Questions for kpb

[coppertop]

kpb, excellent information, the only thing I would add is mineral/salt costs as well as repairs to fences, corrals etc. which also reduces the bottom line.

Interest can certainly reduce the bottom line or put an operation into the red even at today's rates....and the average operator isn't fortunate enough to be interest free....particularly the younger farmers that are just getting started.

[cowman]

kpb: No of course you are right...I wasn't arguing that at all. I just wish more people would use your numbers...instead of telling me I am a cry baby for saying...there just isn't one hell of a lot of money in this...no matter where you are on the beef chain! The fact is no one is making a pile of money on food!
The fact is food has not kept up with inflation? I've used the analogy of the pickup in 1992 versus today, with the price of calves today compared to the 2006 pickup? I wonder how that works with the price of food? If that darned steak is worth twice as much then that darned calf should be worth twice as much? And that just isn't the case! Tell me, if you were getting $2.54/lb.($1.27lb X2) for a 7 weight calf wouldn't you be satisfied?

[cowman]

It might also interest you kpb that I "try" to keep my farming business seperate from my other business(please note...I don't have any outside job...I work for ME) which by the way is extremely hard to keep seperate...hey you use machinery, labor etc. and it all comes out of my pocket...one way or the other!
Now I don't ever claim I expect the farm to pay for any land I buy...I expect rising land values to pay for that...but I do expect the going rate of rental income?
Maybe I am the ultimate diversifier? One year one thing pays, the next year something else pays...although I will tell you I sometimes consider agriculture as a NO SHOW!
Now I shouldn't imply it is a complete dog. If I do the books "right" it pays, but the fact is I have a lot of bucks tied up in something that really doesn't pay like the other business! So how dumb am I? I guess that question will be answered someday when I'm dead? Hopefully it will be a good bottom line for my kids!

[kpb]

cowman, you and I are generally on the same wavelength regarding this business and we've both been told we're whiners so there you go, lol. I gotta tell you that it irks me a little when guys tell me I'm whining when I show them real numbers. Stupid, sure, misguided, ok, I mean I just keep coming back for more. But I don't think facing reality is whining.

Also, I know you work for yourself, just forgot, and I can definitely see some tax benefits from running some cattle on that basis.

coppertop, thanks for your kind comments. I agree with you regarding pen repairs, etc. Also, interest payments for young farmers. Frankly I don't know any young farmers--I'm just not too sure that there are that many, at least in Alberta. And who can blame people for doing something else. I've got 5 kids and none of them want to take over this operation--not because they don't love the ranch, they do, but they've got better opportunites or strengths elsewhere.

kpb

[grassfarmer]

One thing you didn't add in on the income side if the residual value of manure contributed by the animals assuming they are on your own land. It's generally accepted that a cow produces $70-$80 a year of N,P K not including the value of organic matter. A yearling will obviously produce less and if it is in a corral there are mechanical costs to spread the manure. There is still a positive value there and if you are in the business of counting all your costs I think this should also be factored in.

[cswilson]

So if we charge ourselves labour and subtract it from the gross-isn't it still income the cattle provided. X dollars in labour doesn't just disappear into thin air-if we charge it to the enterprise. What I'm getting at is ranching is a series of income and expense events that go on for years. I get it all the time'Why finish your calves you only made $50 bucks clear over selling them as calves' Well if in my ranching liftime you pick up 50 bucks on every calf onn average it starts to add up. You bite and scratch for every nickle be it selling cull cows-cutting feed costs-orwhat have you. It seems alot of people get the whines when you can't buy a yacht on one turn of calves but remember you crawl before you walk. If the decisions you make either increase your income or cut your costs-no matter how much you'll still be operating for alot of years. I'm sorry for having a positive thought on Agri-ville but just can't help myself.

[kpb]

don't recall actually putting in a labour cost in my numbers, oh well cs must have been thinking about someone else I guess. As for yachts, it's been a while since I figured I should have one of those. And $50 per head per calf over a long time ain't going to pay many bills around here, lol.

cs wilson, do you actually run any cattle or feed any calves out there yourself or are you just a cheerleader?

kpb

[cswilson]

We never have less than 500 head of cows and calves around-not a cheerleader but not a crybaby either there sunshine. Phone up Highland Feeders and get some closeouts faxed to you if you like -maybe you'll learn something. By the way any rancher knows better than to ask soebody how many cows they run-poor manners there on your part for sure.

[kpb]

I don't recall asking how many you run--just if you run any at all since your grasp of ranching economics seems so limited. By the way I am well aware of the feeding business on a larger scale than Highland Feeders.

kpb

[cowman]

Reluctantly I touch this one!...I can see both sides on this one! Hey if you are sitting on your butt anyway...how much harder is it to charge labor?
Now I am a firm believer in the kpb philosophy, but I can also see where cswilson is coming from! ...it is just two differnet ways of looking at things? Not bad, just different?
Now I will admit, I see things pretty much just like kpb and lets face it cswilson needs to get a copy of "How to make Friends and Influence People"!...but whatever! He does have a point and it is a very valid one?

[cswilson]

Don't worry fellas I've got lots of friends and influence a few ppeople-kbp's concern for my level of knowledge and financial situation is truly heart warming-kind of makes me feel fuzzy all over. oops got to go hangout with some positive thinkers-can't see any on this thread.