CBEF, BIC, etc.

[kpb]

Any movement to eradicate producer groups would have to be grassroots driven.

I think we do need some group working for the industry to get the message out in urban centres if nothing else. That is what Growing Alberta is supposed to be all about, at least that was the intent.

I sure don't know the answer to this dilemma, but obviously something needs to be done so producers get a better share of the pie.

[grassfarmer]

Sean, your point that it is hard to assess what return we actually get from any organisation is a valid one. If you can't measure how do you know where you are? I don't like being negative and condemning producer groups without having a better solution to hand. So maybe I shouldn't condemn ABP so loudly.
The only way to improve producer representation in my view is to give up all the commodity support groups and have one overall producer organisation. I have never seen a country with the proliferation of different farm groups that Canada has. Most of their time is invariably fighting with their competitor groups eg barley growers have a different agenda to canola growers, beef vs dairy etc etc. The Government knows this and uses it to good advantage. This is why I back the NFU of Canada - their aim is to support all Canadian family farms. kpb - I think you could safely say they are not in the pockets of packers or feedlots! I realise of course that for whatever historical reason there are many who oppose the NFU and it may never fly. It is however an example of the only type of model I can see bringing lasting power to ag producers in Canada - one organisation, all sectors, one voice. Look at the success of the Quebec farm group.

[grassfarmer]

Sean, regarding the "corporate aloofness" you mention, I don't think it is a necessary evil. ABP and BIC are in my experience arrogant and unhelpful. Alberta Agriculture aren't, CCIA staff aren't so why are ABP and it's spin offs?
I hate to think the response a member of the public would get if they phoned BIC - they clearly see their role as speaking to people in the established retail sector. Yet with a website I can see a consumer phoning them up to ask something.

We had a customer ask us what the "finger bone" cut of beef was - phoned BIC Calgary and they couldn't tell me so got me to phone the Ontario office - same result, neither had heard of it or could find out what it was. So I called my local meat processor and one of the women that wraps the meat could tell me - seems I was looking in the wrong place for an expert!

[kpb]

grassfarmer, I was referring to the beef industry groups when I said they were in the pockets of the feedlots and packers, not general ag support groups--obviously groups like the NFU are representing larger farm interests than just the beef producers.

Having said that, and with the caveat that I think the NFU has some merit to it, I must tell you that I think the chances of the NFU ever representing the majority of farmers in this country is nil. The group has a reputation--much of it warranted--as a socialist outfit and there is not a snowball's chance in you know where of most producers supporting a group like that. You'd have about the same chance as getting producers to support a supply management system for beef cattle.

kpb

[kpb]

grassfarmer, it's occurred to me, upon re-reading your post, that you were obviously not comparing the beef groups that I distrust to the NFU. So, basically, I was preaching to the choir. I think that a nation-wide rep group might be helpful to producers of all stripes but I'm afraid that mostly I agree with Saskfarmer on the Rural Issues site that full-time agriculture is just about done.

In my neighbourhood--one hour north of Calgary--both of my long-time ranching neighbours are quitting. One already has and the other is dispersing at the end of the year. That leaves me as the only full-time rancher left around here. And the grain guys are no better. As Saskfarmer has said, the only difference between here and there is that land values here are saving our butts. On a cash flow basis there is nothing in it and, not to sound gloomy, but I see no answer on the horizon.

kpb

[grassfarmer]

This hwy 2 corridor effect is pretty amazing - was down in Balzac the other day and apparently it will undergo a lot of change in the next year. 1200 houses going west of the hwy, a hotel and casino complex, horse training facility etc. This shocking urban sprawl is clearly happening most of the way from Edmonton to Calgary.

Western Canada is still dominated however by large tracts of open farm and ranch land. For most of this land agriculture will be the future. It will not lie empty while we import cheaper food from overseas as that is not logical. Enough food will be imported to artificially hold prices down to a breakeven at best price for producers with the expectation that Government will pick up the tab for keeping producers on the land.

Maybe the future for Alberta producers driven crazy by high land prices and low returns is to move somewhere cheaper? This land that's bringing $2000 an acre would buy a lot of Saskatchewan land at $250 an acre. Perhaps with that much less invested in land profitable production might be possible? That's basically why I moved to Canada - half price for land of a similar productive capacity.
I always think there is a way - if the land is cheap enough, you are not servicing a lot of debt and you are a good manager.

[cakadu]

Grassfarmer, the mega project that you speak of in Balzac is expected to be in the $1 billion range and employ 5,000. Where they are going to even begin to find those workers is a real head scratcher because we can't find enough skilled labour now.

What I wonder about uniting producer groups so that all are represented is what do you think the chances are of something like that succeeding? Several years ago they tried a beef value chain with a 4 of the major beef groups and it did not take off the way they thought it would for a number of reasons, not the least of which was BREED Pride.

If a group like the one being contemplated is to succeed, the participants would have to agree that at the end of the day they are selling beef, not the breed.

How would you see that happening?

[cakadu]

In terms of land values, yes the values are significantly higher if you go along the QE II corridor or are in close proximity to it. The further you are away, the less you are going to get for your land. People in Paddle Prairie and/or Milk River do not enjoy the same land values that are being experienced between Edmonton and Calgary.

What does that mean for any agricultural land along this red hot corridor? Will agriculture be pushed to the far reaches of the province because producers will not be able to afford the land values?

How do you reconcile using viable producing land for housing developments, pipelines, etc?

[silverback]

Nobody in the city really cares about how many farmers are selling their land for housing developments or industrial use. Right now it is all about how to make the most of it. Calgary says it needs more and more land, and no one is there to say no.

As the farmers who want to keep farming sell out, they just bid up the prices in other areas and move there. Everyone should be happy, as the ground gets paved over, it is just taking grain out of the pool accounts. That is what the majority wants isn't it?

[cakadu]

Actually, the majority probably don't have the slightest idea of what happens on a farm as most are at least one or two (or more) generations removed from the farm. The only time the public hears about the farm is when it is in crisis and producers are getting more money, which translated is someone else is getting more money, not the producer and the public doesn't know or hear about that side of it.

As long as people can keep going to the store and buying whatever they want at any given time during the year as long as they are willing to pay the price - they don't really care too much about what happens to the farmer.

Many of you on this site can probably remember when fresh vegetables in the winter came only out of the root cellar and very seldom if ever out of the store. Now look at the choices we have today.

The question becomes why are people willing to pay huge amounts of money to get fruits and vegetables and other products from various countries when we cannot get a decent price for what we produce here at home?