"show cattle"

[circlex]

15444
You should go back to the web site in sask. that you pointed out and read under the white cattle. You must not of read the whole document before the post you made or you would not have made the comment about the red factor in the charolais breed.I agree with the other posts about the cross breeding. We are all trying to get the best cattle possible and profitable. We may not all agree on the cattle that each other may raise and thats a good thing or we all would be in more trouble than we already are in. If you raise any grains of any sort do you still raise the same ones that you grew 20 yrs ago? We all look for what we feel is best for our situation and what we figure will make us the most money in the end.
This is the url in case you can't find it again.



http://skyway.usask.ca/~schmutz/colors.html#White

[cswilson]

Welll grassfarmer if you look at pictures of some of the original french imports-T Anchor Aiglon etc they had red hair patches when I worked at Bill Hunt's-an original Charolais breeder in Canada-president of world full french council and Canadian president-we had Full French cattle that were reddish-no red angus in them-so I'll stand by my statement.

[cswilson]

grassfarmer you seem to contradict your self, saying we need diversity and then condemning breeders for taking advantage of diversity to raise what the market is calling for. I congratulate you if your operation is successful but I sincerely doubt that your condemning others will have much effect on the industry.
I don't agree with the direction some breeds have taken but I keep it to myself, unless someone asks for my two cents worth.

[nerves]

Grassfarmer we are charolais breeders and we have bought bulls from the Rawes program and they were buff color or tan we also bought 11 cows from the sutton herd when they had thier dispersal out in sask. When it rains you can see tan spots all over those cows. Now both of these breeders are foundation breeders were did the color come from? You have to breed what sells.

[grassfarmer]

ciclex, I don't see anything that contradicts what 15444 said about red not being a genuine type of Charolais. I love the picture of the "white shorthorn" cow directly below the text you highlighted. Obviously not a shorthorn with a head like that - maybe a charolais cross?
Emrald1, you misunderstand me when I say we need to keep diversity in agriculture. By that I meant we need to keep as many seperate breeds as possible. Using Angus bulls, for example, to change hide colour on most of the other major breeds in N. America isn't diversifying the gene pool it's narrowing it. Look at the dairy world where the Holstein has taken over - they have crossbred them to the Norwegian Red, the Ayrshire and many others to the point these other important breeds have lost their identity. With the widespread use of AI a huge percentage of Holstein cattle in the world go back to ten bulls and their offspring. This is not smart - it may pay some bills today but if circumstances change and we want a dairy cow to produce off grass, or milk seasonally and live on grass the rest of the year in some country in the world where do we go to get the genetics?

[wd40]

Personally I like the Chianinna - I always wanted to train a team of steers to bull a chariot. I know my heifers of the 70's could have beaten most any horse at the 1/4 mile or if need be at he mile too. LOL

[whiteface]

Remember all, the ring is a "tool" only in selection, presentation of a product for sale and an avenue in which to meet with friends and possibly potential buyers. First and foremost if the cattle don't work the buyers probably know it and if a breeder doesn't raise them right and stand behind his product I promise you they won't be around long. I absolutly live by this philosophy and while I know my way around a show ring very well thank you, the commercial man needs are number one here. Thank you 15444 for that validation on my cattle being a little more than just "fancy." The buyer is always right and if "show cattle" don't cut it for you, let the breeder know, by shopping elsewhere. They'll get the message quick. Thanks all. Have a good evening!

[whiteface]

Good stuff folks ---- Just got home from a week on the road as well. Had a little string of Galloways up in Edmonton, and had a booth at Agritrade in Red Deer as well. Marketing cattle, especially cattle as unrecognized as ours takes a lot more than a show ring.

Showing cattle is fun for some of us. It is kind of like that artsy side of the cattle biz. If we were to take the choice of one man one day too seriously we would all be in trouble.

I like to tell my kids and crew to take the outside lane when heading to tie outs on the race track. Even though I know we have the speed to get out of the way, I don't want to take a chance on some of those oxen with their heels clickin together falling on top of one of our gang. I've suggested to some of those breeders to grow a little longer stouter tail, so they could hold them up if the slope became to steep.

I have to agree with your conversation about size grassfarmer, but try selling a structurally fit, sound legged, thick loined Galloway or Welsh Black two year old weighing 1600 pounds fed without the barley bucket. Even a beef program to sell their calves or fats for them can hardly drag them away from those big fat scanky lookin boys. I even know a Luing breeder who is tempted by the white ones for there "what" growth rate????

Another thing I love to listen to in the barns is the BS about downsizing, or moderating the breed that got a bit carried away with bone and frame.
Does one or two generations actually eliminate the genetic potential for an Oxen,,,, I don't think so. If moderation is in peoples minds, their are two choices. Look to the breeds that have always been there, or wait another 15 or 20 years for the BIG ones to breed down again.

Ultimate - Ultimate - Ultimate, I would rather listen to a chef or a housewife than Cargil and their ultimate efficient factory line. Follow the Lemers as Whiteface says, or ask the consumer if they are totally happy with Cargil's instant frozen boxed beef product, chosen for size by equipment in the factory.

I'll stop now?":<>:"{_} {

[cowman]

Cattle shows are always interesting, but seldom represent reality down on the farm?
The fact is to win(and sell) you have to grease them? Always been that way and always will be that way!
You have to follow the trends if you want to max out your profit in the cattle market? Forty years ago that steer had better be a whiteface if you wanted to ring the bell? Fifteen years ago he needed to be a buckskin, and today he needs to be black! That's just how it is?
You can either go with the flow or balk and raise "yesterdays cattle" and get a few cents less! Now personally I really liked those big white bulls and I still believe nothing can pack the weight on like a char!...and we still sell pounds!
Quite frankly though if you aren't cross breeding you are leaving a whole lot of money on the table? I believe that is a pretty well established fact?
But then I realize I'm looking at it from my viewpoint...which doesn't mean I am right! It is right for me but maybe not right for you? We all raise cattle for different reasons. No way is "right" and no way is "wrong"...just whatever works for you?

[cowman]

Good points Cowman. Same as the pickups we drive !!! My #1 Son is a Ford man, his brother is a Chevy man and I am a Dodge diciple, so we have interesting conversations. Thank GOD they aren't in the cattle business or our discussions might get downright serious !!!

[smcgrath76]

Interesting thread as I am heavily involved in performance testing, genetic evaluation and extension work.
As far as the show ring being a selection tool, technically some people will use show results to select genetics so I guess it is a tool. I kind of figure it to be like trying to use a band saw to pound nails. Not very effective. Where I have seen the real value of shows is as an opportunity for people to get together and communicate - no more no less. I too looked over the cattle at FarmFair didn't see a lot of genetics that are functional for us at home. I also didn't see enough information for us to make any kind of decision on buying seedstock.

Actually the one show I really liked was one the Charolais used to run called breeder's classic. The show was only for yearling bulls and every paid membership got a vote, and all voters had access to EPD information. At the end of the show the most popular bull selected by all the breeders was the winner. As part of this obligation each member got 10 straws of semen on the bull and he was automatically placed on the Conception to Consumer progeny test program, where he was used on commercial cows and the calves were tracked right through to slaughter. In other words, he had to put up or shutup. There were a few bulls that shutup, but at least everyone knew what that bull was doing.

[smcgrath76]

Interesting thread as I am heavily involved in performance testing, genetic evaluation and extension work.
As far as the show ring being a selection tool, technically some people will use show results to select genetics so I guess it is a tool. I kind of figure it to be like trying to use a band saw to pound nails. Not very effective. Where I have seen the real value of shows is as an opportunity for people to get together and communicate - no more no less. I too looked over the cattle at FarmFair didn't see a lot of genetics that are functional for us at home. I also didn't see enough information for us to make any kind of decision on buying seedstock.

Actually the one show I really liked was one the Charolais used to run called breeder's classic. The show was only for yearling bulls and every paid membership got a vote, and all voters had access to EPD information. At the end of the show the most popular bull selected by all the breeders was the winner. As part of this obligation each member got 10 straws of semen on the bull and he was automatically placed on the Conception to Consumer progeny test program, where he was used on commercial cows and the calves were tracked right through to slaughter. In other words, he had to put up or shutup. There were a few bulls that shutup, but at least everyone knew what that bull was doing.

[kato]

We've been with Charolais for 24 years now. There are lots of Charolais bulls out there that are not extreme, and can produce good carcass animals. You won't see them at the shows though. You are more likely to see them at the test stations.

We never buy a really big young bull. Always try and see his mother too. The last really extreme bull we bought was the second a letter "P", so we've been around the alphabet with moderate framed bulls. We've developed a herd of moderate framed easy keeping cows over the years, that don't look any bigger than the ones belonging to our local Angus breeders.

We've started using Limo bulls on some cows, with really good results. We keep our very best cows to breed Char, and get replacements. The rest go Limo. They make really nice animals to feed, and the heifers are as good as a lot of steers. This year we finished all of our calves, and were very happy with the results. There's no point in us taking this good herd of cows and trying to make them Angus, because by the time they were black, they'd be out of fashion.

Trends and fashions, that's what we deal with constantly. The Angus were promoted for the prime purpose of giving the branded beef market enough triple A's to succeed. The best way to get that is to pay a premium. My opinion is that when there are enough of them around that they have no problem picking up enough triple A's to suit them, then the premium will disappear. If everyone is doing it, then it's not special anymore, and there will be no premium.

There are enough different markets for different types of beef to find homes for almost any type of animal. We need the variety for a well balanced industry.

If they make you money, with a minimum of problems, that makes them good cows. Not what colour they are.

That's my opinion.

[bnyoung]

15444 You're right, traditional simmentals in show barns are a rare sight, but they're still there. The majority of the sims in show barns seem to be black, but you know what, I still love my traditionals and will continue to breed that way. Yes, I've bred a few of my girls to purebred bulls, but the majority of my girls are bred traditional, I love them the way they are. Everyone keeps telling me that I've got to go with the flow. However, my mom often said, "my darling daughter, why are you so damn hardheaded at times?" For some people colour does matter, but for some of us, we love the colour. They're all different and unique, and I happen to think they're perfect.
Take care all

[terrye]

We have been in the pirebred industry for going on thirty years and have done a little bit of showing. What I find funny is no one likes fat bulls but that is what sets the bar at Calgary Bull Sale, Agribition, etc. If no one likes fat bulls why do they top the sales. I have taken cattle out of my pasture and gone to shows and obviously did not place very high. I have purchased bulls from sales to put in my program and have founf probably eighty per cent of them don't last more then a few years in my program. Bulls however that I use out of my own program have lasted 8-14 years in my program. Bulls are not meant to be have grown as a yearling. Bulls need to grow and hit their mature weight in 3-4 years. Bulls are nor feedlot animals but are range animals. Just call me the non-political purebred breeder.