going hard on faith!

Spiritual Vignettes

Tools

going hard on faith!

Oct 22, 2005 | 18:26 91 Ranger
Thank you for an intelligent and honest dialogue. I have no formal education either but rely on Gods word that He is no respecter of person, He shows no favouritism. Whosoever seeks shall find etc. The most complicated word I know is hermeneutics, and I'm not sure that it is all it means but I see it as when we read something in the Bible it is important to ask these 3 questions:1 What is the context?,2 Who is it written to?, 3 who is the speaker?.
Also the Holy Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. And believers have the mind of the Messiah.1 Cor 2.
I agree regarding sinoffering in the Old Covenant. Yeshua took upon Himself to be the complete sacrifice for all the sins of the world once and for all. Yeshua became our substitute and suffered what all mankind should have, and He freely gave believers his righteousness as a fair trade. I think he got the sour end of the deal, but it was His choice. He freely laid down His life for us all. Thank you Yeshua.
As far as all the other 631 household rules in Gods family we have to do some heavy gymnastics in human reasoning to make them null and void. After all God gave the instructions for our benefit, not to be mean. He repeatedly encourages us to live after His instructions, teach our children His instructions, think about them day and night. Why? So that it may go well and you may live long in the land you are given.
There is somebody else that kills, steels and destroys-NOT God.
To continue about the 4th commandment, Hank is right in that it was men that changed from saturday to sunday not God. God never changes. So what if the whole world insists on celebrating Shabbot on wednesday. Does it make it right? The Bible clearly says to keep the seventh day as a day of rest. Gen 2 doesn't talk about any celebration but simply states that God rested from all His work. He then blessed the seventh day and made it Holy. So when Moshe got the stone tablets in Gods own handwriting it hadn't changed. The seventh day is a day of rest, Holy, blessed. The rest included the whole household.
Yeshua kept the Sabbath according to Torah, not according to the religious leaders of the day. His disciples kept the Sabbath all through NT.
How could they have missed it if He said not to keep the Torah instructions? Even to the Gentiles in Acts 15 the conclusion in v 19- is for them to not eat food polluted by idols, keep from sexual immorality, not to eat food from strangled animals and to keep from blood. This was the initial list. Interestingly James concludes that Moses is read and taught in the synagogue every Sabbat. So the idea is for the belivers to learn every Sabbath-about Torah.
Now if the Torah instructions were obselete, why bother with some of them for the new gentile believers? The whole counsel agreed to the letter.
Sabbath is going to be celebrated in the new heaven and new earth according to Isa 66:22-. God never changes. Mal 3:6
Deu 12:28-32 talks about results of following Gods instructions. Verse 31 talks about NOT to use the nations way of worship to worship God. Do not worship the Lord your God in their way!.Hold fast to Gods own instructions.V 32 says; do not add to it or take away from it.
There is in my mind no solid evidence in scripture to change the Sabbath or any of the everlasting instructions regarding Gods feasts. Such attempts to say that is is irrelevant what day is used is anti-Messiah. Such words can be expected to be used by the man of lawlessness that started his operation in 2 Thess 2.Lawlessness= without Torah, without Gods instructions.
Since it was the catholic church that changed the Sabbath and all the feasts I'm very suspicious that it is the work of humans, not God.
I end with Prov 21:2 All a man's ways seem right to him, but the Lord weighs the heart. Reply With Quote
Oct 23, 2005 | 15:14 92 I agree that you have to look at context, who was the intended audience, and who the speaker was. Paul wrote his letter to the Galatians to refute the Judaisers who taught that believers should hold to Jewish law in order to be saved. Salvation is not by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ. The law only serves to condemn, never save. Those 631 household rules you talk about illustrate the basic message of Galatians, you cant possibly be good enough to be saved by the law. Please reread all of Galatians, and pray for understanding of what Paul is saying and why. He does outline obvious sins to avoid in 5:19-21; basic moral sins, but doesnt instruct the keeping of ceremonial laws at all which looked forward to and were fulfilled with the coming of Christ.
It appears to me that the first church after Christ were the ones to change the celebration of the Sabbath to Sunday for the reasons outlined earlier. Colossians 2:16 specifically addresses the Judaisers attack of this practice. Were the apostles anti-messiah? If it was good enough for Peter, Paul and the other apostles, its good enough for me. Be careful when you admonish others with Proverbs 21:2, as it might just be applicable to yourself in this case. As you said, you must take the whole of Gods word, and not just the parts you want. You are right when you say that God never changes, but human practices can and do, such as animal sacrifice, the ceremonial practice of circumcision, and the day of rest. Reply With Quote
Oct 23, 2005 | 22:42 93 Greetings SK, SW, FR and others!
We hosted the premiere showing of World at War at our church this evening. It is a must-see! Please look at the web site
http://www.leftbehind-worldatwar.com/ for more information.
FarmRanger,I appreciate what you have written in your last post. By the way, I am an ordained minister with formal training for anyone who cares. Some of my seeming ignorant statements come out of my sense of humour rather than what would appear to be my lack of respect for the Word of God.
I try not to take myself too seriously therefore my off the cuff approach to forums like these. Reply With Quote
Oct 24, 2005 | 00:17 94 Ranger
I'm glad that we have established that salvation is through faith in Yeshua alone, not by works. By believing in our hearts that Yeshua is who He said He was and confess Him to be the Lord of Lords. No other sacrifice is necessary.
When it comes to Sabbath we apparently have to agree to disagree. I see absolutely no biblical evidence of a change from saturday to sunday. As I stated there is in Isaiah 66 the very strong indication that Sabbath and new moon will be celebrated when the new Heavens and the new earth has been established. All mankind will bow down before God and will look at the result of those who transgressed against God. Where do you find scripture that the apostles changed Sabbath to sunday? It was the catholic church that changed the day about year 300, so all the apostles were dead. Keep in mind all the other things that that church has introcduced in their own interest.
Paul also says in Rom 3:31 that the law is not nullified and that he for one establishes it.
Yeshua, in Matt 5:17-20 states that as long as heaven and earth remains the law also remains and there is consequenses for the way the law is taught. To fulfill can also mean to make complete.
I don't say that it is wrong to celebrate God any and every day of the week, but it has to recognized that it is a human invention. If a believer can enter in to a complete rest void of all work he most certainly enjoys days of heaven on earth. I think it is a bit dangerous to say that God has changed without having any scriptural evidence of it.
One thing to keep in mind is that the religious leaders of the time had implemented fences and extra rules that both Yeshua and the apostles had to set them straight about, I.e Matt 15. Jews are humans too!. Hence the letter to the Galatians.
In some ways Yeshua tightened up the law. I.e Matt 19 regarding divorce.
I meant no disrespect with the quote from Proverbs, but isn't it true that we all belive in what we do and say. God is the one who can judge rightly the intents of the heart.
Shalom Reply With Quote
Oct 24, 2005 | 11:36 95 Greetings all. I think we will have to agree to disagree sk. Since the law doesnt require animal sacrifices or circumcision anymore, its not just my human thinking that we arent living under the yoke of at least some of it today. Jesus said in Matthew 11:30 "For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light". Jesus was defending his own Sabbath breaking in Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Personally, I am going to remember Gods word in Colossians 2:16,17 and not let anyone judge me on what I eat or drink, what religious festivals I keep or on what day I keep the Sabbath.

Almost dry now, so its back to the harvest.I have enjoyed our discussion and blessings to you. Reply With Quote
Oct 25, 2005 | 21:43 96 Farmranger, I was wondering why you would bother with quoting mr. Hanagraff a man that uses his carnal gift of cutting up any christian that doesn't line up with his calvinism. Oh wasn't John Calvin that old time theologian that burn't people at the stake if they didn't agree with him? Correct me if I'm wrong. Reply With Quote
Oct 25, 2005 | 21:49 97 gosling, how are you doing? You can't go wrong by taking the whole chapter 3. It is a promise of God. Reply With Quote
Oct 25, 2005 | 22:37 98 Ranger
Thank you agan for a civilized dialouge.
You bring up interesting scriptures that I hope you allow me to comment. What Yeshua is quoting in Matt 11 is Jeremiah 2;20, 5:4-5, 6:16-19. Jeremiah talks about what happens when Gods law is rejected, so Yeshua is actually calling the yoke of the law for easy and its burden is light. I fact the way of Gods household is easy compared to anything else.
I think if you review your statement regarding Yeshua breaking the 4th commandment regarding Sabbath, you will realize that if He in fact broke the Sabbath commandment He could not be without sin. And in that case He could not be our substitute.
The case was as I eluded to earlier that the religious leaders of the time had made up their own rules, and they were accusing Him of breaking them. They accused Him and His disciples for eating without their cerimonial washing of hands. Yeshua DID NOT brake any commandments EVER. He was 100% sinless and the sin that was on Him when He gave His life on the cross was mine, yours and everybody elses.
I also agree totally to Col 2. I'm keeping YHWH's feast's without any second thoughts, just like many people celebrate man made pagan holidays in Gods name without second thoughts.
When it comes to food, remember that when the word food is used by the apostles, Yeshua and Paul, in context it excludes all food that the instructions from YHWH in Torah excludes. Remember they lived by the Torah and Yeshua is the living Torah. John 1:1-14.
It is so easy to put todays context in to scripure. Pig is no more food than dog or cat in scriptural context.
Read Isa 66 again and see that Sabbath is going to be celebrated when the new heaven and new earth is here.
Again thanks for the good conversation. This tread should be started again. It takes too long to load.

SW
To me it looks like you and Hank are cut out of the same stump. Don't argue personality, show us what exciting things you have found in scripture.
Did you know that we are seated between Yeshua and Dad in heaven?
Shalom Reply With Quote