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Oct 28, 2017 | 13:00 1 "Canada's first inhalation site for drug users to open in Lethbridge"

Good use of limited medical dollars? They will help you snort, swallow, inject or smoke your choice of illegal drug.

Busiest day? "...the day before “cheque day,” when many clients will receive their monthly provincial benefits."

Oh the beauty of choice without responsibility in a socialist society.

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...-in-lethbridge Reply With Quote
Oct 28, 2017 | 16:08 2
Quote Originally Posted by burnt View Post
"Canada's first inhalation site for drug users to open in Lethbridge"

Good use of limited medical dollars? They will help you snort, swallow, inject or smoke your choice of illegal drug.

Busiest day? "...the day before “cheque day,” when many clients will receive their monthly provincial benefits."

Oh the beauty of choice without responsibility in a socialist society.

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...-in-lethbridge
Right or wrong, that describes a very dismal picture for some if us just trying to get through a day. I just remembered how much love/care/time/effort/example my parents put into us kids to support our endeavours in life. A lot of coversations were uncomfortably real life, I recall being quite insulted and somewhat hurt by these "matter of fact" conversations.
I dont have any solutions for these problems, mostly because I dont understand them. I hope to not ever have close family or friends in these situations. I am pretty sure this was not the aspriations when these people were kids growing up. Reply With Quote
Oct 28, 2017 | 16:39 3 I think a lot the same way. It's easy to criticize things we don't understand sometimes. The easy answer is kick those bums in the ass and get to work but it s sometimes not that simple. It is a test of the humanity in all of us what we provide this people. Couldn't imagine what that life would be like, and certainly hope no one I ever know has to endure that challenge. Reply With Quote
Oct 28, 2017 | 16:45 4 Saw a survey somebody did asking addicts themselves what they thought of the injection site idea, a surprisingly high percentage said they’d rather have the money spent on arresting them and forcing them into rehab and that the injection sites make it harder for them to find a way to quit Reply With Quote
Blaithin's Avatar Oct 28, 2017 | 17:01 5 I believe it’s Medicine Hat that pays for housing and things for their homeless so that they no longer have any?

Not exactly the same as drugs but would definitely have some overlap in the people it’s helping. And the stats coming out of that project are quite good if I remember correctly. Reply With Quote
Oct 28, 2017 | 17:19 6 The first thing a person learns at Al anon is don't be an enabler. Support is crucial for recovery. Not for continuing addiction. Money poorly spent under another fundamentally flawed policy. Reply With Quote
Oct 28, 2017 | 17:52 7 I feel for these people but u can't be an enabler. Money poorly spent but seems like this is the way things are headed. Nobody wants there feelings hurt and nobody wants to tell it like it is so we are left with holding hands and hugs and kisses. In my experiences it was a kick in the ass. Reply With Quote
farmaholic's Avatar Oct 28, 2017 | 18:11 8 In some cases the addiction is a symptom of a deeper personal problem. So until you treat the underlying cause of the addiction, successfully treating the addiction can be difficult.

I guess they think supervised use might curb some other diseases.

Fentanyl is a train wreck Reply With Quote
Oct 28, 2017 | 18:34 9
Quote Originally Posted by seabass View Post
I feel for these people but u can't be an enabler. Money poorly spent but seems like this is the way things are headed. Nobody wants there feelings hurt and nobody wants to tell it like it is so we are left with holding hands and hugs and kisses. In my experiences it was a kick in the ass.
Yup. A kick in the ass is a step forward. Reply With Quote
GDR
Oct 28, 2017 | 21:53 10 I guess fortunate here, don't understand addictions at all, never felt that need for anything. Unbelievable how many people are affected, first reaction is they've made a choice let them assume the risk not my problem but then again don't understand and do worry what if my kids fall into that trap.

Gotta stop that crap at the source, any bastard caught cooking or selling that crap should be strung up. Reply With Quote
Oct 28, 2017 | 22:06 11
Quote Originally Posted by GDR View Post
I guess fortunate here, don't understand addictions at all, never felt that need for anything. Unbelievable how many people are affected, first reaction is they've made a choice let them assume the risk not my problem but then again don't understand and do worry what if my kids fall into that trap.

Gotta stop that crap at the source, any bastard caught cooking or selling that crap should be strung up.
Oh now come on, as the bleeding hearts out there will lecture us we can't win by throwing drug dealers in jail or execution. They must be "rehabilitated" while living at their own home. 😂

I totally agree with you, the only way to solve the problem is to cut off the drug supply and dealers. Enabling drug users to use heroin in a monitored area is just prolonging the damage being done. Reply With Quote
farmaholic's Avatar Oct 29, 2017 | 02:04 12 Safe drug use facilities hardly make sense to me either....its almost like enabling the abuse to continue. But as I said if it prevents a pile of diseases associated with drug use or prevents overdoses....? Still hardly makes sense to me. As for suppliers of street drugs.....there will always be a market and someone will supply it. We have a joke of a justice system that very little punitive consequences for law breaking. So there is little risk in supplying(at different levels) the drug trade.

There is a myriad of reasons within these realms: socially, personally, dysfunctional family, medically and others why people turn to drugs innocently and purposely. Ultimately in alot of cases a personal choice, but why? Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 06:27 13 I have no idea why I put Calgary in the title.

There are mixed results coming from such facilities. Most do not point to success in helping solve the cause, a huge variable as each person is different.

One family member who has connections within that type of facility says that it does reduce longer term costs associated with individual drug users, but then gives a shake of the head indicating that it is really no remedy at all.

The problem lies much deeper and helpful enabling is not the solution. Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 06:59 14
Quote Originally Posted by GDR View Post
I guess fortunate here, don't understand addictions at all, never felt that need for anything. Unbelievable how many people are affected, first reaction is they've made a choice let them assume the risk not my problem but then again don't understand and do worry what if my kids fall into that trap.

Gotta stop that crap at the source, any bastard caught cooking or selling that crap should be strung up.
They tried that in the Philippines. It failed miserably. People don’t care what the laws are some will do hard drugs no matter what. Treatment is the key to get addicts better. Treatment is a lot closer when your using a safe injection site. I’d prefer these addicts shooting up with medical care close by as opposed to doing it in a back alley overdosing there and then our tax dollars have to be spent on medical care after the fact. Have compassion and remember that addict you see is a son a dad a brother or a mother. It could be your kid that makes some bad decisions and ends up on the streets. Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 07:14 15
Quote Originally Posted by Oliver88 View Post
Oh now come on, as the bleeding hearts out there will lecture us we can't win by throwing drug dealers in jail or execution. They must be "rehabilitated" while living at their own home. 😂

I totally agree with you, the only way to solve the problem is to cut off the drug supply and dealers. Enabling drug users to use heroin in a monitored area is just prolonging the damage being done.
Your idea is so stupid it’s laughable. What do you think the war on drugs has tried to accomplish for the last 50 years? No amount of heavy handed laws are going to make a difference. If we could just throw people in jail to solve the drug problem it should be almost done by now. But drug use is much higher now than any other time in history. You can’t stop cartels that are more powerful than the governments trying to stop them. Your fairy tale of stamping out drug supplies is just that a dream that’s been tried and has failed. Time to try something different. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting different results. Sounds insane to me to continue down the same failed path that got us into this mess over the last 50 years. More of the same is not going to change anything.
Last edited by Casered; Oct 29, 2017 at 07:25.
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Oct 29, 2017 | 07:30 16
Quote Originally Posted by hobbyfrmr View Post
Yup. A kick in the ass is a step forward.
That might work when you stole cookies from the cookie jar. That approach dosent seem to work for heroin addicts. Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 07:55 17
Quote Originally Posted by Casered View Post
Your idea is so stupid it’s laughable. What do you think the war on drugs has tried to accomplish for the last 50 years? No amount of heavy handed laws are going to make a difference. If we could just throw people in jail to solve the drug problem it should be almost done by now. But drug use is much higher now than any other time in history. You can’t stop cartels that are more powerful than the governments trying to stop them. Your fairy tale of stamping out drug supplies is just that a dream that’s been tried and has failed. Time to try something different. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting different results. Sounds insane to me to continue down the same failed path that got us into this mess over the last 50 years. More of the same is not going to change anything.
Your fairy tale of "slap on the wrist" rehabilitation for hard core criminals is a disaster as well although you and the John Howard society will say different.

When criminals get charged with manslaughter for dealing heroin, opioids or fentanyl they will quit reoffending behind bars for the duration of their prison sentence. The situation now leads to a slap on the wrist, a dealer reoffending, than a dead body or two near cheque day so the status quo is a disaster whether they add a few stations to "shoot up" on illegal drugs or not.
IMO they should be charged with manslaughter since every deal is a potential death. Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 08:05 18
Quote Originally Posted by Casered View Post
That might work when you stole cookies from the cookie jar. That approach dosent seem to work for heroin addicts.
Agreed. That was just a funny quip I learned from an old guy in town. Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 08:24 19
Quote Originally Posted by Oliver88 View Post
Your fairy tale of "slap on the wrist" rehabilitation for hard core criminals is a disaster as well although you and the John Howard society will say different.

When criminals get charged with manslaughter for dealing heroin, opioids or fentanyl they will quit reoffending behind bars for the duration of their prison sentence. The situation now leads to a slap on the wrist, a dealer reoffending, than a dead body or two near cheque day so the status quo is a disaster whether they add a few stations to "shoot up" on illegal drugs or not.
IMO they should be charged with manslaughter since every deal is a potential death.
You really don’t get it do you? In the Phillipies for the last two years they have been executing drug dealers and users. They still have a drug problem there. No amount of charges or even death will stop addicts from getting their heroin. In the 80’s the USA had really tough penalties for heroin it did nothing to slow down use. This idea you have that enforcement will deter use is total bullshit. We’ve seen what hard penalties for drugs has done in the USA . It has done nothing to slow down drug use but it’s caused the USA to have the highest incarceration rates per capita in the world. It’s great that you’ve convinced yourself this pipe dream will work. It won’t. If we look at the last 50 years it proves what your saying to be not only incredibly stupid but incorrect. Your idea drug dealers should be executed is horrible I hope your kids don’t make any mistakes and end up getting hung at the gallows.
Last edited by Casered; Oct 29, 2017 at 08:28.
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Oct 29, 2017 | 08:56 20 http://www.medicaldaily.com/portugal...g-drugs-382598This article explains the success they’ve had in Europe doing the complete opposite of what North America is doing. Worth reading for sure. We have had no succes in North America battling drug addiction with our archaic mentality. They have seen results. Much like when I farm I like to see results. Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 10:01 21 From the article: 'Secondly, it’s difficult to prove whether anything is working or not working, even with all the data that’s been accumulated over the past 15 years. The point of the Portuguese system was to get more heroin users into treatment, which has happened. “Check — there are more heroin users in treatment, but that’s also the case in all of Europe,” Hughes said. “Is the HIV rate dropping? Yes, but the same in other countries. Deaths are decreasing here and in other countries. It’s difficult to say scientifically that the Portuguese system is wonderful and others are terrible.”

The article indicates that "Portugal's Drug experiment" is hardly conclusive. All it did was shift the harm/load into a different arena. Not saying that is is worse or better, just that it has not solved the drug problem.

Which begs the question - shouldn't society be identifying why users start? Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 10:50 22
Quote Originally Posted by burnt View Post
From the article: 'Secondly, it’s difficult to prove whether anything is working or not working, even with all the data that’s been accumulated over the past 15 years. The point of the Portuguese system was to get more heroin users into treatment, which has happened. “Check — there are more heroin users in treatment, but that’s also the case in all of Europe,” Hughes said. “Is the HIV rate dropping? Yes, but the same in other countries. Deaths are decreasing here and in other countries. It’s difficult to say scientifically that the Portuguese system is wonderful and others are terrible.”

The article indicates that "Portugal's Drug experiment" is hardly conclusive. All it did was shift the harm/load into a different arena. Not saying that is is worse or better, just that it has not solved the drug problem.

Which begs the question - shouldn't society be identifying why users start?
You missed the next paragraph.


At the end of the day, however, even Hughes has to admit that the Portuguese system simply works. The best way to see that, he says, is by looking at the politics: The government has changed parties four times since the program came into effect in 2001, yet there is no discussion whatsoever on changing the drug system. There are no debates or heated controversies like there are in the U.S. “Nobody’s asked to go back to the old system,” Hughes said. “Other countries are still highly political about it. Any time anyone brings out the decriminalization word everyone starts fighting.” In Portugal, however, there’s “silence” on the matter.

Perhaps that’s best highlighted by a comment from Joao Figueira, chief inspector of Lisbon’s drug unit, when speaking with FOX News in 2012. Originally an opponent of the new program, Figueira ultimately changed his mind, like many other skeptics: “The level of conflicts on the street are reduced,” he said. “Drug-related robberies are reduced. And now the police are not the enemies of the consumers.”


This is not a silver bullet to cure the opioid epidiemic in North America but it far more effective then our failed attempt at curing addiction through incarceration.
Last edited by Casered; Oct 29, 2017 at 11:07.
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Oct 29, 2017 | 11:03 23
Quote Originally Posted by Casered View Post
You really don’t get it do you? In the Phillipies for the last two years they have been executing drug dealers and users. They still have a drug problem there. No amount of charges or even death will stop addicts from getting their heroin. In the 80’s the USA had really tough penalties for heroin it did nothing to slow down use. This idea you have that enforcement will deter use is total bullshit. We’ve seen what hard penalties for drugs has done in the USA . It has done nothing to slow down drug use but it’s caused the USA to have the highest incarceration rates per capita in the world. It’s great that you’ve convinced yourself this pipe dream will work. It won’t. If we look at the last 50 years it proves what your saying to be not only incredibly stupid but incorrect. Your idea drug dealers should be executed is horrible I hope your kids don’t make any mistakes and end up getting hung at the gallows.
Now why don't you tell us how many of these executed heroin dealers in Philippines managed to become repeat offenders......will it be somewhere around zero?
Our current justice system has created a culture of heroin use in downtown Vancouver with homeless people.
You seem to like putting all our tax $ to social services that will simply prolong the harm to drug users while letting the dealers being unaccountable for killing many homeless people.

You seem to have a soft spot for heroin and fentanyl dealers which is a LARGE part of the problem with our status quo. Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 11:18 24
Quote Originally Posted by Oliver88 View Post
Now why don't you tell us how many of these executed heroin dealers in Philippines managed to become repeat offenders......will it be somewhere around zero?
Our current justice system has created a culture of heroin use in downtown Vancouver with homeless people.
You seem to like putting all our tax $ to social services that will simply prolong the harm to drug users while letting the dealers being unaccountable for killing many homeless people.

You seem to have a soft spot for heroin and fentanyl dealers which is a LARGE part of the problem with our status quo.
No I have a soft spot for people with addiction problems as I have lost someone very close to me from opiates. Knowing first hand what people suffer though with addiction and watching our problem in Canada grow. It makes me think we need to try something new. If using jail as a deterrent to drug use was working maybe your argument would have a chance. But the fact we can look at statistics and see harder sentencing doesn't deter use in any way makes what your saying unfactual. I don’t have a problem jailing fentanyl dealers I have a problem with throwing thousands of drug addicts in prison without proper treatment and hoping the problem is fixed when they leave jail. Only to reoffend. Throwing tax dollars at treating these addicts is a lot cheaper then the other option of them Being a drain on society and having a bunch of screwed up kids because they couldn’t get help. Then this continuing for many generations. Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 11:29 25
Quote Originally Posted by Casered View Post
You missed the next paragraph.


At the end of the day, however, even Hughes has to admit that the Portuguese system simply works. The best way to see that, he says, is by looking at the politics: The government has changed parties four times since the program came into effect in 2001, yet there is no discussion whatsoever on changing the drug system. There are no debates or heated controversies like there are in the U.S. “Nobody’s asked to go back to the old system,” Hughes said. “Other countries are still highly political about it. Any time anyone brings out the decriminalization word everyone starts fighting.” In Portugal, however, there’s “silence” on the matter.

Perhaps that’s best highlighted by a comment from Joao Figueira, chief inspector of Lisbon’s drug unit, when speaking with FOX News in 2012. Originally an opponent of the new program, Figueira ultimately changed his mind, like many other skeptics: “The level of conflicts on the street are reduced,” he said. “Drug-related robberies are reduced. And now the police are not the enemies of the consumers.”


This is not a silver bullet to cure the opioid epidiemic in North America but it far more effective then our failed attempt at curing addiction through incarceration.
Hughes' admission means little in that there is NO EVIDENCE that the drug problem is reduced! Changing the rules to accommodate the symptoms does not relieve the illness!

Casered, supposing you were to jump out of a tree - because you LOVE climbing trees and jumping down! - and end up with two broken legs, and the doctor were to give you a walker, pain reliever and tell you that tree climbing/jumping is a dangerous pastime! Because he knows that you're just going to climb and jump again, after all, it's your choice, right?

Imperfect analogy maybe, but is that a satisfactory approach to the problem? Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 11:36 26
Quote Originally Posted by burnt View Post
Hughes' admission means little in that there is NO EVIDENCE that the drug problem is reduced! Changing the rules to accommodate the symptoms does not relieve the illness!

Casered, supposing you were to jump out of a tree - because you LOVE climbing trees and jumping down! - and end up with two broken legs, and the doctor were to give you a walker, pain reliever and tell you that tree climbing/jumping is a dangerous pastime! Because he knows that you're just going to climb and jump again, after all, it's your choice, right?

Imperfect analogy maybe, but is that a satisfactory approach to the problem?
Your analogy is way to simplified. Most heroin addicts want to quit. They don’t enjoy a life of misery. Heroin addiction takes a hold so strong it’s hard to imangine. Im saying jail is not the place for them, rehab is. Most addicts never see a doctor if we can get these people into facilities where they can possibly get treatment that’s a step in the right direction.
Last edited by Casered; Oct 29, 2017 at 11:42.
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Oct 29, 2017 | 12:09 27 I agree that prison is ineffective.

Also, treatment is a necessity.

My argument is that enabling them through such programs as that in Lethbridge is just as useless in solving the problem as prison.

The Portugal experiment bears that out.

Perhaps the only way to help addicts is to put them into mandatory rehab. Would you not prefer to see your tax dollars go there?

I also have family who got wrapped up in drugs and it isn't pretty. One hardly knows how to help. Sometimes we just gave food because it is inhuman to let them starve. Showing love doesn't come easy but compassion should drive it. But in both cases, it was their choice.

The one who had the toughest background actually quit drugs, showing incredible will power. The other, who actually had an above average home opportunity, continues to abuse. The typical flower child, tree hugging, anti-oil activist with the values of an alley cat.

It shouldn't be hard to determine which one gets the most willing help and support from family.
Last edited by burnt; Oct 29, 2017 at 12:12.
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Oct 29, 2017 | 12:19 28 The project in Lethbridge will help to stop the spread of hiv and get people to seek treatment who wouldn’t have otherwise. It will save lives I think that’s a good thing. Right now if someone needs treatment In Canada it can take months to get into a facility. We need to start there if we’re going to help this problem. Reply With Quote
Oct 29, 2017 | 13:17 29
Quote Originally Posted by Casered View Post
No I have a soft spot for people with addiction problems as I have lost someone very close to me from opiates. Knowing first hand what people suffer though with addiction and watching our problem in Canada grow. It makes me think we need to try something new. If using jail as a deterrent to drug use was working maybe your argument would have a chance. But the fact we can look at statistics and see harder sentencing doesn't deter use in any way makes what your saying unfactual. I don’t have a problem jailing fentanyl dealers I have a problem with throwing thousands of drug addicts in prison without proper treatment and hoping the problem is fixed when they leave jail. Only to reoffend. Throwing tax dollars at treating these addicts is a lot cheaper then the other option of them Being a drain on society and having a bunch of screwed up kids because they couldn’t get help. Then this continuing for many generations.
I'm suggesting hard prison sentences for heroin and fentanyl dealers, I have no use for anyone who has zero regard for their customers and prey on people with addictions.

We all want the best for the users/addicts that can't stop but I am not a fan of enabling them but do support quicker access to rehab services to get them to quit poisoning their body.

It will never be perfect and there is only so many tax dollars and charity dollars to minimize the problem.
The most efficient use of services is likely maximizing rehabilitation for addicts and harsh penalties for dealers. (Minimize the reoffending that is currently happening.) Reply With Quote
Oct 30, 2017 | 08:40 30
Quote Originally Posted by Oliver88 View Post
I'm suggesting hard prison sentences for heroin and fentanyl dealers, I have no use for anyone who has zero regard for their customers and prey on people with addictions.

We all want the best for the users/addicts that can't stop but I am not a fan of enabling them but do support quicker access to rehab services to get them to quit poisoning their body.

It will never be perfect and there is only so many tax dollars and charity dollars to minimize the problem.
The most efficient use of services is likely maximizing rehabilitation for addicts and harsh penalties for dealers. (Minimize the reoffending that is currently happening.)


I don’t like dealers preying on the weak either. But I don’t think locking up a few dealers with life sentences will slow down this problem. There are web sites on the dark web where anyone with a computer can order pounds of fentanly straight to their mail box from China. Why try a failed approach to drug reform? The USA has already tried your strategy of going after drug dealers. It didn’t help the problem. Soon as one dealer gets arrested another one starts up to fill the void. Although I understand why you feel jail is the answer, when we look at the raw data from the last 50 years it proves harder sentences have not reduced drug use. Why go down a failed path we’ve been down before knowing it leads to a dead end? Reply With Quote