Is Ag Stability Dead! Our Accountant thinks it is.

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Is Ag Stability Dead! Our Accountant thinks it is.

SASKFARMER3's Avatar Apr 11, 2017 | 07:01 1 Just had a meeting yesterday at our accountants to go over some other things going on in Ottawa and the conversation turned to Insurance.

His comments were most farmers did get some thing from Crop insurance on grade factors and loss.

Guys with crop out a lot harvested more than their production guarantee so what is in the field they might try to get or will burn.

Private insurance programs were all the rage a few years ago but most after three years working with them have dropped because they didn't pay that much out. If this is the way the Feds and Provincial want farmers to go, I would say were in trouble.

Most farmers were dropping Ag Stability and even guys who did already pay the fee some were asking for the money back before the April 30th deadline. The main reason most were dropping the Prov?Fed program were the changes from last years budget. Plus the useless audits that date back to Case program. What the workers have nothing to do. Sad what could of been a enhanced crop insurance and drop all the shit is now two programs that really aren't that great.

We are sticking with Saskcrop insurance but boosted the coverage on Canola to 80% we are still going to use hail insurance up to $200.00 acre but that will depend on what the year is like till June.

So what are others thinking on insurance.

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The above hail storm took out crops from Cupar to Top of Fort Quapelle last summer. It can happen in a instant.
Last edited by SASKFARMER3; Apr 11, 2017 at 07:10. Reason: screwed up point
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farmaholic's Avatar Apr 11, 2017 | 07:26 2 We remain in it unless I don't make the premium due at the end of April. We aren't in crop insurance but are kinda self insured. So it is a way to cover my ass in case of an outright disaster hits us. It will be inadequate as hell but it will be something. And yes... hail insurance is carried.

I've said it before, the governments saw the potential huge liability staring them in the face if a widespread disaster struck, so they revamped the program to mitigate their risk. Reply With Quote
SASKFARMER3's Avatar Apr 11, 2017 | 07:38 3 I sent the check in March after the notice came. So yes were still in it. Reply With Quote
farmaholic's Avatar Apr 11, 2017 | 07:41 4 The death of the Ag-Stab-me-in-the-back program won't be because of farmer's unwilling participation but the government's intentional design..... the program didn't have to be lucrative but it should have at least been adequate. Reply With Quote
SASKFARMER3's Avatar Apr 11, 2017 | 07:54 5 Well a big piss off a lot of guys had was the Audits dating back to 2000 and older Really lets check my dads tax return for 1944.

But at the same time some Companies really figured out the program and abused it.

Farmers will use a program if it offers some sort of protection and is simple to get their heads around. Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 08:11 6 Can remember all the years we stayed in cattle, not so much for the money but in case things went bad again for grain.
Last few years we got out of cattle and have seen unprecedented grain profit on this farm.
Think we will stay with Agristability and crop insurance while available and unless something better comes along. Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 08:20 7 These programs imo are designed for everyone BUT the actual producer. The way it is right now you have to experience an event that there is no recovering from to qualify. Enough if is enough, I've been out since 14 this game of a dangling carrot is not for me. They sell hope and nothing more. I won't get into the data they have accumulated on us through this pos program. Reply With Quote
ajl
Apr 11, 2017 | 08:53 8 Good the sooner Agri Stab is gone the better. Just another tools for the Colonies and BTO's to eliminate the small farmer since the cost of participating in the complex program far outweighs the benefits for the smaller producer. (mainly accounting fees). I would like to see a revenue insurance program set up based on realistic yields for the area and not typical averages in the 1930's. This would eliminate things like quality factors and the like. Simply the price of the various qualities would determine if you get a payout or not. Should be easy to do. Alberta's spring price endorsement is sort of a wonky version but I would like to see yield and price integrated together rather than working separately. Reply With Quote
fjlip's Avatar Apr 11, 2017 | 09:34 9 This is 3rd year out of Ag Back Stab,( thanks Feds), would not have paid out any way, saving premiums!
Crop ins has paid in 2004 on quality and 2010 on quantity. Still received more than premiums since 1985. Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 09:55 10 Too bad the federal government couldn't mitigate the liability of bombardier the same way as farmers. Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 10:51 11 If you've ever been to a National Safety Nets meeting, it's enough to make you gag. CFA, which includes KAP, Wild Rose, etc; fall all over themselves to prove who's the smartest.

What happens is, Finance hands down to Ag how much the budget is. The Ron Bonnett types (Jack Wilkinson clones) then carve out how to apply that money to a farm program.

Never does anyone (but the cattle producers) speak up to say, "This won't work for our producers". The majority just act like Govt lap dogs. Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 10:57 12 We have exactly same recipe as you sf3, scic@80%,hail ins @$200. Were going to get back in last year after floods but acct wanted $10k for the 3 yrs and actually scic treated us good so to hell with ag stability
Last edited by caseih; Apr 11, 2017 at 15:19.
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Apr 11, 2017 | 13:43 13 Any hands-on farmer who keeps good yield and revenue records (and is capable of filling out a form), can complete his/her own AgriStability with easily (and no problem with audit). Manual farm records set up for AgriStability ease make it a breeze. IMHO The claims processors may even help you to fill out the forms and show you how it works. The verification process can be frustrating if you don't know how to do revenue checks, but it certainly is not too difficult.

I worked for AIDA CAIS and AgrStability(for twelve years) , never will pay an accountant to complete my AgriStability. I helped many farmers to fill out their own forms and never had one come back for adjustments. Been through audits and no problem at all. It's a cake walk, especially for Agrivillers. 👍

Changes to margin calculation after 2011 have changed the probability to trigger a payment and I am not saying that the program is effective, but if it is accountant fees that you are prohibitting you from applying, then try it on your own. You may surprise yourself at how simple it really is. Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 18:17 14 Staying in, hoping new government fixes the program MR RITZ fucked Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 18:51 15 Agri stability work good for me. Accountant charge less than 200 and he works for me and himself. It was explained a couple years ago what some poeples problem was but lot of poeple don't want to learn on here . Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 19:23 16
Quote Originally Posted by wakopa View Post
Agri stability work good for me. Accountant charge less than 200 and he works for me and himself. It was explained a couple years ago what some poeples problem was but lot of poeple don't want to learn on here .
I missed the tutorial , can you elaborate?

sumdum , I hear you on the accounting . many have said it's easy to do . I guess our biggest reason we're out is because we have good crop ins and always take $200/ac hail ins . as well we sell leafcutter bees every year so I don't think we have much of a chance . but having said that I sure didn't feel very good after the 42 " rain we got, and that we weren't in it . I don't think we would of qualified even with that , though . Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 19:29 17 Farmaholic,

Do you not have to carry crop insurance for agristability? Otherwise the deduct what you would have got with 70% coverage for each crop. They may have changed that when the gutted the program after 2012 but that's the way it used to be.

We have gone to straight crop insurance for that reason. Agrisabilty will never kick in for us because we will always make to much on crop insurance. Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 19:43 18
Quote Originally Posted by caseih View Post
We have exactly same recipe as you sf3, scic@80%,hail ins @$200. Were going to get back in last year after floods but acct wanted $10k for the 3 yrs and actually scic treated us good so to hell with ag stability
Your getting ripped off, get a new accountant! Agristability is so cheap why would you not wanna be in it. Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 20:09 19 From Alberta:
AgInvest - yes
AgStability - No
Crop Insurance-yes, with hail rider
Since they've kept records, we are at about 60% recovery of crop insurance premium, mostly through hail Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2017 | 21:01 20 AgriInvest is the only one that makes sense to stay in, although just got notice that Royal Bank is going to start collecting fees from AgriInvest accounts because farmers have too much money and banks are poor. Quit AgriStability in 2012. Don't like pointless paperwork of any kind.

Even managed to eliminate StatsCan from my life by letting unknown phone numbers go to answering machine(to verify it's StatsCan), saving number to phone and blocking it and burning any mail from them. I don't even know if they exist anymore. Life is so much simpler. Reply With Quote
farmaholic's Avatar Apr 11, 2017 | 21:09 21 Mbratrud, I honestly can't answer that question with any certainty. I think they used to threaten that was the case at one time. We only ever collected from AgStab once in 2004 when there was a hard August frost. And I don't remember if they reduced our payout by what I would have received had we been in Crop Insurance.
If that's the case why don't they make you take both or either Crop Ins and AgStab before you can receive AgInvest money?
But you bring up a good point so I will do some digging and find out if that may be the cais (case....hehehe).
If we only received AgStab benefits once in the last 12 years you have to wonder how much we would have received from Crop Ins along the way as well....maybe a token amount here and there?

Now I have this huge account were we put all the premiums we would have paid into crop insurance and don't know what to do with it! And we are selling some of our Ghetto land for $750/ac....interested BP? ;-)
Last edited by farmaholic; Apr 11, 2017 at 21:17.
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Apr 11, 2017 | 22:00 22
Quote Originally Posted by farmaholic View Post
Mbratrud, I honestly can't answer that question with any certainty. I think they used to threaten that was the case at one time. We only ever collected from AgStab once in 2004 when there was a hard August frost. And I don't remember if they reduced our payout by what I would have received had we been in Crop Insurance.
If that's the case why don't they make you take both or either Crop Ins and AgStab before you can receive AgInvest money?
But you bring up a good point so I will do some digging and find out if that may be the cais (case....hehehe).
If we only received AgStab benefits once in the last 12 years you have to wonder how much we would have received from Crop Ins along the way as well....maybe a token amount here and there?

Now I have this huge account were we put all the premiums we would have paid into crop insurance and don't know what to do with it! And we are selling some of our Ghetto land for $750/ac....interested BP? ;-)
Not disagreeing with your strategy, I'd love to self insure. Just can't afford the risk at this stage of our farm.

I always point that out to people who say they are in Agristabily and not in crop insurance. Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2017 | 07:09 23 Apparently Crusher and I have the same outlook. I am a slow learner though as I just quit Agristability last year. Reply With Quote
farmaholic's Avatar Apr 12, 2017 | 07:23 24 Mbratrud. I did some looking and couldn't find where it said Ag Stab payments would be reduced by the amount you would have collected had you also been in crop insurance. But it did show that crop insurance procedes are classified as eligible income in gross margin calculations but I don't think Ag Stab procedes are. So in effect your reference margin would erode if you could have been receiving crop insurance payments.

DYODD. but a good question mbratrud

Richard5....are you by and can you verify. You seem to be a bit of a guru at this stuff, I don't want to mislead.
Last edited by farmaholic; Apr 12, 2017 at 07:36.
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Apr 12, 2017 | 07:28 25 2015 was a bad year and yet I received nothing....2016 had the quality issues but not likely going to receive anything.....


Sure I am still farming but I am not receiving 10 percent of a 372 million dollar bailout like the executives of bombardier....and I would like to think over my career I have contributed to the country. Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2017 | 07:45 26
Quote Originally Posted by farmaholic View Post
Mbratrud. I did some looking and couldn't find where it said Ag Stab payments would be reduced by the amount you would have collected had you also been in crop insurance. But it did show that crop insurance procedes are classified as eligible income in gross margin calculations but I don't think Ag Stab procedes are. So in effect your reference margin would erode if you could have been receiving crop insurance payments.

DYODD. but a good question mbratrud

Richard5....are you by and can you verify. You seem to be a bit of a guru at this stuff, I don't want to mislead.
If you don't have crop insurance they will factor what you would have got at 70% and add to your income. Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2017 | 08:17 27 I've applied to many banks and credit unions trying to get refinanced to keep rolling and not once did anyone raise my crop insurance coverage or my agstability reference margin, seems funny how these should be our guaranteed bottom line yet they don't even ask about them.
If you are triggering a payment from last years shit show it must have been bad and who can afford to get another crop in after a wreck last year. It'll be to late if you trigger anything.
Its no wonder capital input is even looked at Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2017 | 08:23 28 Ever see a banker tap on the sides of bins?


Most just say they have "x" amount of storage and it's assumed it's full. Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2017 | 08:29 29
Quote Originally Posted by vvalk View Post
If you don't have crop insurance they will factor what you would have got at 70% and add to your income.

That's what I was also told a few years ago. I dropped AgriStability 4 years ago and raised my crop ins to 80%, at least now I have something that is little bit predictable. Ritz completely gutted this program so it would never pay out. Reply With Quote
farmaholic's Avatar Apr 12, 2017 | 08:57 30 I asked some questions at SCIC. They told me the "adjustment" for not being in crop insurance only happens when you fall into Ag Stab negative margin territory. So if you had a claim above negative margin territory they do not adjust the AgStab payout by the amount you would have received if you had been in crop insurance. They explained the adjustment is kind of made up at 70% of what the average area(RMs) farmers crop insurance #'s/claims would have been at the same time.

I hope this makes sense but am still open to opinion/clarification or if this is how other people see it.

Once again, DYODD.

Thanks for the response vvalk. Reply With Quote